Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

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Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by Ebenezer » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Roy Beebe’s Six Rules to Environmentally Adapted Breeding

1. Each year, eliminate any cow that fails to calve trouble free or wean a calf.
2. Select replacement heifers from cows that breed early in the breeding season and calve unassisted.
3. Keep the bred heifers that breed early in the breeding season and calve unassisted.
4. Select herd sires with acceptable birth weights from highest-producing females in #1 & #3.
5. Breed the bulls in #4 to the females in #2 & #3 and continue to practice #1.

6. Do not engage your cattle in any activity or program that interferes or compromises rules #1 through #5.


Somebody mentioned #4 as one that they did not agree with. Can you please tell me more of your thoughts. Was there a concern that it pushed production too high? Thanks.



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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:05 pm

Ebenezer wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:52 pm
Roy Beebe’s Six Rules to Environmentally Adapted Breeding

1. Each year, eliminate any cow that fails to calve trouble free or wean a calf.
2. Select replacement heifers from cows that breed early in the breeding season and calve unassisted.
3. Keep the bred heifers that breed early in the breeding season and calve unassisted.
4. Select herd sires with acceptable birth weights from highest-producing females in #1 & #3.
5. Breed the bulls in #4 to the females in #2 & #3 and continue to practice #1.

6. Do not engage your cattle in any activity or program that interferes or compromises rules #1 through #5.


Somebody mentioned #4 as one that they did not agree with. Can you please tell me more of your thoughts. Was there a concern that it pushed production too high? Thanks.
That was me. I may have made a faulty assumption that this was a closed herd line breeding system. I prefer to infuse new genetics every few years.
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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by Ebenezer » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:46 pm

I wondered about that, too. But if you can select the cows and AI to bulls that you know to use or want to trial it would be good. Or just buy a bull and see if any of the sons would be useful in time. I do not know if Beebe tightly linebred or not but his cattle were well accepted and a friend in GA knew him and said that they did well for him in south GA, too. I have not read Courageous Cattlemen lately. I ought to pull it out and read it again.

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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:03 pm

Ebenezer wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:46 pm
I wondered about that, too. But if you can select the cows and AI to bulls that you know to use or want to trial it would be good. Or just buy a bull and see if any of the sons would be useful in time. I do not know if Beebe tightly linebred or not but his cattle were well accepted and a friend in GA knew him and said that they did well for him in south GA, too. I have not read Courageous Cattlemen lately. I ought to pull it out and read it again.
I’ll look into the Courageous Cattleman.
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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by Ky hills » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:33 pm

Seems like a reasonable approach to selection. That is actually a lot like what my idea of selection is, though have never articulated it to that detail. I also bring in new genetics at times through AI and herd bulls, as well as use some home raised bulls sometimes. I wonder on the subject of the question of getting to high of production, if in actuality since the animals are acclimated to their environment and performing well if they are just naturally able to maintain performance. Where as on the other side of the equation perhaps a brought in outlier’s progeny may not be able to replicate the performance and or reproductive efficiency. Disclaimer: not directing the last paragraph at any program, individual, or management regimen, merely expressing a theory across a broad spectrum.

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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by sim.-ang.king » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:50 pm

TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:05 pm
Ebenezer wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:52 pm
Roy Beebe’s Six Rules to Environmentally Adapted Breeding

1. Each year, eliminate any cow that fails to calve trouble free or wean a calf.
2. Select replacement heifers from cows that breed early in the breeding season and calve unassisted.
3. Keep the bred heifers that breed early in the breeding season and calve unassisted.
4. Select herd sires with acceptable birth weights from highest-producing females in #1 & #3.
5. Breed the bulls in #4 to the females in #2 & #3 and continue to practice #1.

6. Do not engage your cattle in any activity or program that interferes or compromises rules #1 through #5.


Somebody mentioned #4 as one that they did not agree with. Can you please tell me more of your thoughts. Was there a concern that it pushed production too high? Thanks.
That was me. I may have made a faulty assumption that this was a closed herd line breeding system. I prefer to infuse new genetics every few years.
Guess you could still apply number 4 to those bulls from outside sources. Finding a farm that operates much like your's, and is in the same region, then looking at what their cows lines are like.
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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by mrvictordomino » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:55 pm

Ebenezer wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:52 pm
Roy Beebe’s Six Rules to Environmentally Adapted Breeding

1. Each year, eliminate any cow that fails to calve trouble free or wean a calf.
2. Select replacement heifers from cows that breed early in the breeding season and calve unassisted.
3. Keep the bred heifers that breed early in the breeding season and calve unassisted.
4. Select herd sires with acceptable birth weights from highest-producing females in #1 & #3.
5. Breed the bulls in #4 to the females in #2 & #3 and continue to practice #1.

6. Do not engage your cattle in any activity or program that interferes or compromises rules #1 through #5.


Somebody mentioned #4 as one that they did not agree with. Can you please tell me more of your thoughts. Was there a concern that it pushed production too high? Thanks.
A good list to follow for sure to improve the fertility/efficiency of a herd of cattle. Nothing wrong with #4 in selecting herd sires just as long as it doesn't lead to undesireable long term change in your cattle. In my case I would be leary of frame creep if one always selected the highest performance, largest frame calves as herd sires. I don't always select the highest performer for future herd sires as I am looking to maintain the type of cattle that can work in a sixty day calving season utilizing our fescue based pastures and our overall environment and management system. Bulls selected for service here will be out of cows with solid performance and good family history.
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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by mrvictordomino » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:15 pm

Ebenezer wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:46 pm
I wondered about that, too. But if you can select the cows and AI to bulls that you know to use or want to trial it would be good. Or just buy a bull and see if any of the sons would be useful in time. I do not know if Beebe tightly linebred or not but his cattle were well accepted and a friend in GA knew him and said that they did well for him in south GA, too. I have not read Courageous Cattlemen lately. I ought to pull it out and read it again.
I ran a large group of Red Angus cows for about ten years, a lot of these cattle had a high percentage of Roy Beebe breeding. I don't recall from the pedigrees I had back then that there were a lot of real close breeding. Not to say he didn't do some. I purposely don't breed no closer than half sibs and do very little of that. I have five or six lines within the herd that I cross with to keep the IBC from getting too high too quick but still maintaining the concept of consistancy and predictability of a line bred herd of cattle.
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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by Nesikep » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:33 am

Courageous Cattleman.. wow $186 for the used book!

My two best calves (a bull and a heifer) this year are from 3/4 sibling matings, massive at 3 months, but I don't have the feeling they'll be too big when mature.. Well, the bull is going to be big of course, both the mommas are what I consider a perfect size for me, stocky and about 1400 lbs when in full shape. Most of my calves this year are from 1/2 siblings and 1/4 sibling minimum, best looking group I can remember

VictorDomino, I agree with not always keeping the biggest heifers for replacements, you want the heaviest that will probably mature to the size you want instead
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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by Ebenezer » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:32 am

Nesikep wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:33 am
Courageous Cattleman.. wow $186 for the used book!

My two best calves (a bull and a heifer) this year are from 3/4 sibling matings, massive at 3 months, but I don't have the feeling they'll be too big when mature.. Well, the bull is going to be big of course, both the mommas are what I consider a perfect size for me, stocky and about 1400 lbs when in full shape. Most of my calves this year are from 1/2 siblings and 1/4 sibling minimum, best looking group I can remember

VictorDomino, I agree with not always keeping the biggest heifers for replacements, you want the heaviest that will probably mature to the size you want instead
To just read, see if your library has an inter library loan option. It is a good read and helps us understand beef cattle history in North America. Same as the Angus Legends and the companion book that I cannot remember the title right now. History opens a whole new world and perspective - Like an old coworker used to say, "Folks doing the same things but just different folks doing it".

Danny, I wondered if that was going to be the concern on #4 the last time I posted it. To always pick the biggest is to always pick the outlier. We started in the state BHIA years ago back when AAA had EBVs instead of EPDs. We were both commercial and purebred at that time. That was a great learning experience on extremes and it is really hard to appreciate proper purebred cattle unless you deal with some crossbreds and see results. More of a balanced real world view, I guess. The use of lines in a herd is a smart move and the sires can be selected from crossed lines and then the heifers can return to the matron line with a bit of outcross. Thank you to all who commented.

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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:28 am

I think those rules have been in practice in commerical herds for a long time. Roy Beebe just put them on paper.

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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by ALACOWMAN » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:59 am

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:28 am
I think those rules have been in practice in commerical herds for a long time. Roy Beebe just put them on paper.
Probably as a reminder, not too make the same mistakes twice..
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Re: Lost the chance to get an answer on Roy Beebe's rules

Post by 76 Bar » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:44 am

4. Select herd sires with acceptable birth weights from
highest-producing
females in #1 & #3.
I've been a long time admirer of Beebe's philosophy and cattle accomplishments. All due respect but I'm convinced what he meant by "highest-producing females" is likely misconstrued & misinterpreted to mean extreme producers. Nothing could be further from the truth in Beebe's opinion.
I stumbled across a written version of a presentation regarding his opinion of cow efficiency: the aspects of maternal cattle. IMLTHO, it should be etched in the mind of all who breed cattle and particularly, seed stock producers.
Haven't a clue where I found it nor the original source so crediting isn't possible. Nonetheless, it's assuredly share worthy. Would have to c/p it and its a bit lengthy. Your input & suggestions would be appreciated.

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