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Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:58 pm
by Brookhill Angus
It's come to my attention that there is a big debate about how big a cow should be, including fertility issues, mobility, etc. The prevailing school of thought that I see on Cattle Today is that 1200-1400 pound cows are ideal, anything over that is "Obese". It also seems that a cow with a really big frame is thrown into the "obese" or as someone said about one of our cows "a fat pos". I've heard that a fat momma will just simply not hold up. I assume that conditions in North Dakota are brutal in the winter at best.

I happen to have a great deal of respect for SAV cattle, and their entire program. So with that said, I am posting two photos from the Youtube video produced by Angus Assoc. that features the SAV program. I assume the cows in these photos are pregnant. I also assume they are in excellent condition. I will also assume they ARE NOT hand fed grain daily out on the range.

My question is this, SAV runs a highly proven Angus operation, probably the finest in the world, if skinny, under-conditioned cows are the best, why do they raise cows that look like this instead, and clear millions of dollars in profits?

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Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:41 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
I, for one, do NOT promote thin cows. You are losing performance if your cows are thin. Do they work for the producer, sure, I bet they do. Could they do a better job with better nutrition, I would bet money on it. But, if your environment meant you had to supplement your cattle in order to keep them in a BCS of 5 - 6, then you have to look at bottom dollar profit. Where is that "fine line" between your cattle working for you and you working for your cattle.

I do not have to supplement my cows. They eat grass when I have it and good hay in the winter. NY land grows grass well. With the invention of baleage, I can have great winter hay - feed 6 months.

BH - your cattle that you post are definitely over-conditioned. SIZE of your cattle have nothing to do with it. BCS, natural thickness, volume and frame size are different issues. You have great pastures, and I'm assuming you put up great hay. The thing "we" don't agree with is the grain being given to the cows. It is unnecessary with your pastures, and it's like flaunting. I am NOT trying to give you a hard time. Just kinda trying to explain why you get sooooo much flack about your "FAT" cows. Are they good cows? Probably top notch. I don't think anyone thinks they are not.
My replacement heifers are weaned and put on 5# whole shell corn + baleage + free choice mineral and the best health program possible. When my heifers are bred in the spring, they get turned out on grass with the mature cows and never see grain again. Do my cows come when I call? You bet your bippy they do. They ALL know what grain is - or what an opened gate is for rotational grazing.

The SAV cows appear to be dry cows, in BCS of probably 6.5 - perfect. They have super capacity and great natural width. Will be in perfect condition to calve - IMHO.

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:56 pm
by Brookhill Angus
Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I, for one, do NOT promote thin cows. You are losing performance if your cows are thin. Do they work for the producer, sure, I bet they do. Could they do a better job with better nutrition, I would bet money on it. But, if your environment meant you had to supplement your cattle in order to keep them in a BCS of 5 - 6, then you have to look at bottom dollar profit. Where is that "fine line" between your cattle working for you and you working for your cattle.

I do not have to supplement my cows. They eat grass when I have it and good hay in the winter. NY land grows grass well. With the invention of baleage, I can have great winter hay - feed 6 months.

BH - your cattle that you post are definitely over-conditioned. SIZE of your cattle have nothing to do with it. BCS, natural thickness, volume and frame size are different issues. You have great pastures, and I'm assuming you put up great hay. The thing "we" don't agree with is the grain being given to the cows. It is unnecessary with your pastures, and it's like flaunting. I am NOT trying to give you a hard time. Just kinda trying to explain why you get sooooo much flack about your "FAT" cows. Are they good cows? Probably top notch. I don't think anyone thinks they are not.
My replacement heifers are weaned and put on 5# whole shell corn + baleage + free choice mineral and the best health program possible. When my heifers are bred in the spring, they get turned out on grass with the mature cows and never see grain again. Do my cows come when I call? You bet your bippy they do. They ALL know what grain is - or what an opened gate is for rotational grazing.

The SAV cows appear to be dry cows, in BCS of probably 6.5 - perfect. They have super capacity and great natural width. Will be in perfect condition to calve - IMHO.


Jeanne, when good pasture is available, our gals get just a little token treat, a pound per head. What we give them is not just straight corn. It is has a lot of other things in it that promotes top health. I can get you the tag. As Ron said earlier, the hay is terrible this year and our pastures are nothing but mud just days after they are rotated. If I pulled everything back I would wonder what they are eating because this weather has made conditions terrible. Right now it’s freezing rain, and the ground is like a sponge from weeks of rain. Not ideal conditions.

I like for the cows to be in top condition, I’ve noticed over many years doing this that the calves are very healthy when born, I rarely ever pull calves or have calving issues and they breed back well. I think a cow or heifer that has poor nutrition will rarely become a high performing animal, which I’m sure you would agree with.

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:11 pm
by Lazy M
Brookhill Angus wrote:It's come to my attention that there is a big debate about how big a cow should be, including fertility issues, mobility, etc. The prevailing school of thought that I see on Cattle Today is that 1200-1400 pound cows are ideal, anything over that is "Obese". It also seems that a cow with a really big frame is thrown into the "obese" or as someone said about one of our cows "a fat pos". I've heard that a fat momma will just simply not hold up. I assume that conditions in North Dakota are brutal in the winter at best, and freeze your fu....king face off at the worst.

I happen to have a great deal of respect for SAV cattle, and their entire program. So with that said, I am posting two photos from the Youtube video produced by Angus Assoc. that features the SAV program. I assume the cows in these photos are pregnant. I also assume they are in excellent condition. I will also assume they ARE NOT hand fed grain daily out on the range.

My question is this, SAV runs a highly proven Angus operation, probably the finest in the world, if skinny, under-conditioned cows are the best, why do they raise cows that look like this instead, and clear millions of dollars in profits?

Image

Image

I don't care how much a cow weighs if she weans a calf close to 50% of her body weight. Otherwise she's an inefficient POS. Looking thru SAV sales books, most of their calves are exceeding 50%..

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:22 pm
by Jeanne - Simme Valley
Here is a frame 5 cow, at the age of 12. This was a donor cow, Miss Lass. Weighed maybe 1650# in picture. Super deep, soggy, not fat. Brisket is flat, no fat pockets at tail head. Maybe a BCS of 6 pushing 6.5?
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This is Yippee, 7 years old in picture. Frame score 7, weighs maybe 1800# in picture BCS 5.5 - 6?
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Both cows I would consider a "big" cow. Two different types. Yippee is bigger frame, longer type. Both great cows, IMO.
I don't know what Lass was being fed, because she was being leased and was at Hudson Pines Farm where they flushed her 5 times each year they had her.

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:26 pm
by elkwc
Lazy M wrote:
Brookhill Angus wrote:It's come to my attention that there is a big debate about how big a cow should be, including fertility issues, mobility, etc. The prevailing school of thought that I see on Cattle Today is that 1200-1400 pound cows are ideal, anything over that is "Obese". It also seems that a cow with a really big frame is thrown into the "obese" or as someone said about one of our cows "a fat pos". I've heard that a fat momma will just simply not hold up. I assume that conditions in North Dakota are brutal in the winter at best, and freeze your fu....king face off at the worst.

I happen to have a great deal of respect for SAV cattle, and their entire program. So with that said, I am posting two photos from the Youtube video produced by Angus Assoc. that features the SAV program. I assume the cows in these photos are pregnant. I also assume they are in excellent condition. I will also assume they ARE NOT hand fed grain daily out on the range.

My question is this, SAV runs a highly proven Angus operation, probably the finest in the world, if skinny, under-conditioned cows are the best, why do they raise cows that look like this instead, and clear millions of dollars in profits?

Image

Image

I don't care how much a cow weighs if she weans a calf close to 50% of her body weight. Otherwise she's an inefficient POS. Looking thru SAV sales books, most of their calves are exceeding 50%..
If that is without creep or supplemental feed rhen I agree.

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:49 pm
by sim.-ang.king
Give it a rest already, we all know you raise your cows how you want to raise your cows.

Congrats! Would you like a medal???

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:03 pm
by Brookhill Angus
sim.-ang.king wrote:Give it a rest already, we all know you raise your cows how you want to raise your cows.

Congrats! Would you like a medal???


No medals needed,

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:26 pm
by TennesseeTuxedo
I’d like a medal.

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:47 pm
by Bigfoot
TT participation medals are only given to people who feed hay in January with a cabless tractor. You may however, still receive a star sticker. I will drop that in the mail today.

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:48 pm
by TennesseeTuxedo
Bigfoot wrote:TT participation medals are only given to people who feed hay in January with a cabless tractor. You may however, still receive a star sticker. I will drop that in the mail today.


I’ll take it!

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:49 pm
by Ebenezer
Let's all hum in unison - "Hail to the Chief".

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:50 pm
by bse
I hear that S A V promotes that they don't creep feed calves, but the give them mommas all the silage they want, which is better than creep feeding calves. Don't know any of it for a fact just hear say. Not knocking them at all, I've used there genetics, actually more this year than in the past.

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:56 pm
by Brookhill Angus
Bigfoot wrote:TT participation medals are only given to people who feed hay in January with a cabless tractor. You may however, still receive a star sticker. I will drop that in the mail today.


Does feeding 20 years with a cabless 40hp David Brown tractor count?

Re: Big Momma Cows

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:58 pm
by Brookhill Angus
Ebenezer wrote:Let's all hum in unison - "Hail to the Chief".


You are far too kind!