Black white face gelbvieh??

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Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by AKE » Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:52 am

Has anyone heard of a black white face gelbvieh? Somebody around said they have black white face gelbviehs and was just curious.
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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by Son of Butch » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:54 am

Nope, but a black gelbvieh x hereford cross would produce black white faced F1 Gelbfords
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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by dun » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:57 am

Gelbviehs are originally solid red (really kind of yellow). That's what their name means, "Yellow Cow". The only way to get a white face on them would be using either a Hereford or a Simmenthal. We have a red whiteface Gelbvieh bull calf now. Momma is Gelbvieh daddy is R294 (Hereford)
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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by WalnutCrest » Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:09 pm

dun wrote:Gelbviehs are originally solid red (really kind of yellow). That's what their name means, "Yellow Cow". The only way to get a white face on them would be using either a Hereford or a Simmenthal. We have a red whiteface Gelbvieh bull calf now. Momma is Gelbvieh daddy is R294 (Hereford)


So, to get a "BWF Gelbvieh" you'd actually need at least three breeds ... one of whom would have to be black hided. Fullblood Simmental, Gelbvieh and Herefords aren't black.

To get something that might be considered by some to be a black "simmental" or "gelbvieh" or "hereford", you're really talking about an F3 or F4, at least.
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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by Son of Butch » Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:34 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:To get something that might be considered by some to be a black "simmental" ... you're talking a F3 or F4, at least.

The Simmental Association would have a bone to pick with you. As there are many registered PB Black Simmentals.

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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by Muddy » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:22 pm

WalnutCrest wrote: you're really talking about an F3 or F4, at least.
:roll:

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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by WalnutCrest » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:20 pm

fullblood simmental x. commercial black angus cow = black heifer calf, 50% F1 simangus

fullblood simmental x. F1 simangus heifer = black heifer, 75% F2 sim-simangus

fullblood simmental x. F2 sim-simangus = black heifer, 87.5% F3 sim-sim-simangus

fullblood simmental x. F3 sim-sim-simangus = black calf, 93.75% F4 sim-sim-sim-simangus

****************

Now, if someone replaces the "fullblood simmental" with a 93.75% F4 sim-sim-sim-simangus, the percentage of actual simmental blood in the resulting F4 would be only 87.9% simmental blood ... even though the simmental association says it's a purebred and would be worth 100% in future breed-up scenarios.

Pretending for a second, this 87.9% 'purebred' simmental is used in the 3rd round of breed up, that F4 would only have only 82.4% simmental blood.

This degredation of hybrid vigor only increases each time something other than a fullblood is used when getting to a 'purebred' of almost every breed that allows breed-up programs.

Commercial cattleman beware.

*****************

So, back to the original question...

The black probably came from black angus; possibly galloway.
The hereford marks came from a hereford.
And, if someone is marketing them as gelbvieh then presumably there is gelbvieh is in there somewhere.

So, yes, they're selling three-way-cross bulls.
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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by cow pollinater » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:16 pm

Most of the continental breeds came here as semen first and fullblood live cattle second. They got crossed with whatever people had and bred up from there. It is not all that uncommon for purebreds to have 4-5% hereford in there and black came from Angus. I saw a limousin heifer that was a purebred with a white face that I'd have bought in a heartbeat if they'd have sold her to me but she was "Not for sale!" She came from matings of hereford and limousin with very little angus in there and it was enough that the white face stuck.
There is one place up in Kansas making gelbfords and one of these days I'm going on a field trip to see them.

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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by 3waycross » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:05 pm

In fact I had one born last week..........a mixup at the semen company had me putting a straw of Club Calf(Maine) semen in one of my Gelbvieh cows last year. Believe me when I say you coulda knocked me over with a feather when that calf turned around and showed my the prettiest blaze face you ever saw. The added benefit of this is that it revealed that a heifer from last year is the same cross but because she's solid black she slipped by. At 11 months she is really showing signs of the clubby influence. If I get a chance I will post a picture...he is definitely a heavy boned square topped hairy little fella
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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by reeler » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:51 pm

dun wrote:Gelbviehs are originally solid red (really kind of yellow). That's what their name means, "Yellow Cow". The only way to get a white face on them would be using either a Hereford or a Simmenthal. We have a red whiteface Gelbvieh bull calf now. Momma is Gelbvieh daddy is R294 (Hereford)

Would sure like to see a pic of that calf

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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by reeler » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:52 pm

cow pollinater wrote:Most of the continental breeds came here as semen first and fullblood live cattle second. They got crossed with whatever people had and bred up from there. It is not all that uncommon for purebreds to have 4-5% hereford in there and black came from Angus. I saw a limousin heifer that was a purebred with a white face that I'd have bought in a heartbeat if they'd have sold her to me but she was "Not for sale!" She came from matings of hereford and limousin with very little angus in there and it was enough that the white face stuck.
There is one place up in Kansas making gelbfords and one of these days I'm going on a field trip to see them.

If you don't mind saying, where in KS are the gelbfords?

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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by strihafarms » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:14 pm

Couldn't you breed a homozygous black Gelbvieh bull to a purebred Hereford cow and get f1 bwf cattle?

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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by 3waycross » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:50 pm

strihafarms wrote:Couldn't you breed a homozygous black Gelbvieh bull to a purebred Hereford cow and get f1 bwf cattle?


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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by strihafarms » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:27 pm

That's what I thought but someone made it sound like you couldn't

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Re: Black white face gelbvieh??

Post by 3waycross » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:54 pm

strihafarms wrote:That's what I thought but someone made it sound like you couldn't



I've seen some beautiful red baldies made from red GV bulls and herf females.
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