Cidr protocol expectations

Breed your cows to the best bulls in the nation!
Post Reply
Bcompton53
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:03 pm
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Cidr protocol expectations

Post by Bcompton53 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:16 pm

This is our third year of ai breeding using a synching process. We do the gnrh-cidr-PG heat detect, then time breed at 72hrs non responders with another gnrh shot.
We generally have cows in good condition, as calves are pulled off 8n March or April, and cows spend the summer on brome pasture.
My question is, we have averaged time breeding about 6 out of 20 that don’t show heat. Is that what everyone else sees? We have decent success time breeding the non responders, but it’s not a comfortable feeling putting semen into a cow that doesn’t show heat.



User avatar
WarEagle73
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:29 pm
Location: North Alabama
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by WarEagle73 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:26 pm

Ive tried that protocol as well as using CIDRs to synchronize the cows into tighter windows for heat detection. If you are already doing heat detection, I would just extend your heat detection window by a couple days and get rid of the timed breeding. Anything that doesn’t respond, either set them up again with a later group or turn the bull in. I agree that I don’t like putting semen into cows that don’t show heat, even though I know it works. I just don’t like wasting expensive semen. For me, I especially feel this way on heifers. To me, heifers are so much easier to breed on heats and I like to know they are cycling.

To answer your question, I think your numbers are pretty close to normal. Track who you bred on time and see what the conception rate is like on that set compared to the cows bred on heats.

User avatar
Bright Raven
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 10701
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 914 times
Been thanked: 951 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by Bright Raven » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:39 pm

I breed on natural heats. When I have to, I use the following protocol:

Day 1. Administer GnRH. Insert CIDR
Day 7. Remove CIDR and Administer PG
Heat Detect and breed on estrus signs just like you would on natural heat.

I don't have a large sample size to base my conclusions on but over the years of using the 7 day synchronization, I see a lot of variability in when they display estrus behavior. As WarEagle said, no one likes to put semen in a cow/heifer that is not showing any signs of estrus behavior.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

Bcompton53
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:03 pm
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by Bcompton53 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:18 pm

WarEagle73 wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:26 pm
Ive tried that protocol as well as using CIDRs to synchronize the cows into tighter windows for heat detection. If you are already doing heat detection, I would just extend your heat detection window by a couple days and get rid of the timed breeding. Anything that doesn’t respond, either set them up again with a later group or turn the bull in. I agree that I don’t like putting semen into cows that don’t show heat, even though I know it works. I just don’t like wasting expensive semen. For me, I especially feel this way on heifers. To me, heifers are so much easier to breed on heats and I like to know they are cycling.

To answer your question, I think your numbers are pretty close to normal. Track who you bred on time and see what the conception rate is like on that set compared to the cows bred on heats.
You know what’s funny, 3 of the 4 cows we bred on time this year, we also bred on time last year. And had 2/3 settle.

bse
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1352
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:50 am
Location: middle tn
Has thanked: 47 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by bse » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:28 pm

id bet out of your 6 three are in heat, im not sure why some just dont get rode, my belief maybe the boss cow no other cows fool with, and ive seen them in a flury with 5 or 6 and maybe a few just dont get into it. ive said it before if no straw no pregnancy. i dont want to loose the money in the sync, so i breed em all, never look back.

User avatar
Dsth
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:33 pm
Location: eastern Iowa
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by Dsth » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:34 am

I have about the same average of non responders. I do breed on signs of standing heat which ranges for 2 - 5 days. non responders do not get bred. I sync so they will cycle in 3 weeks with cows that did not settle from 1st breeding unless they have been open past 90 days. those cows will get a shot of lute at 10 days. I have changed my vaccination program this year since the vet said the live vaccine that I was using can cause cows to not cycle and reduce conception rated. I will see if the killed vaccine improves heat cycles and/or conception rates. I feel that my cows are above average in body condition scores so I don't think that factors into cows not showing heat.

Bcompton53
Cowhand
Cowhand
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:03 pm
Location: Kansas
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 80 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by Bcompton53 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:35 am

bse wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:28 pm
id bet out of your 6 three are in heat, im not sure why some just dont get rode, my belief maybe the boss cow no other cows fool with, and ive seen them in a flury with 5 or 6 and maybe a few just dont get into it. ive said it before if no straw no pregnancy. i dont want to loose the money in the sync, so i breed em all, never look back.
Yeah, That's been about the rate of settling we get with timed breeding.

kentuckyguy
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:06 am
Has thanked: 70 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by kentuckyguy » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:25 pm

Most of the studies conducted on AI work at dairy farms shows that estrogen levels in other cows have a great affect on mounting.
Cows that are 3-5 day pre or post estrus are most likely to ride other cows in heat. Others could care less.
I have noticed with my small herd that certain cows will ride other cows more often. It’s almost like they will only jump the cows they regularly socialize with.

This year I had some tough ones that didn’t get mounted but were trying to mount every cow that came by them. Cows that displayed this behavior all seemed to be in heat when I bred them.

User avatar
Bright Raven
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 10701
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm
Location: Kentucky
Has thanked: 914 times
Been thanked: 951 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by Bright Raven » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:38 pm

kentuckyguy wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:25 pm
Most of the studies conducted on AI work at dairy farms shows that estrogen levels in other cows have a great affect on mounting.
Cows that are 3-5 day pre or post estrus are most likely to ride other cows in heat. Others could care less.
I have noticed with my small herd that certain cows will ride other cows more often. It’s almost like they will only jump the cows they regularly socialize with.

This year I had some tough ones that didn’t get mounted but were trying to mount every cow that came by them. Cows that displayed this behavior all seemed to be in heat when I bred them.
Have you noticed that cows on the higher end of the pecking order do not get mounted as much as lower pecking order cows? My highest ranking cow rarely gets mounted when she is in estrus. Plus, when a lower pecking order cow or heifer comes in to estrus, sometimes the highest pecking order cow will covet them to herself to the extent that she will punish other cows who mount the one in heat.
"Looking for an honest man".
Diogenes.

User avatar
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 11388
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:46 am
Location: Central Upstate New York
Has thanked: 731 times
Been thanked: 1006 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by Jeanne - Simme Valley » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:22 pm

I hate to breed on TAI, but I do if they don't show a heat and get decent conception. If they do show a heat AFTER you breed, I would re-breed.
Simme Valley of New York - http://www.SimmeValley.com
"We make a living by what we get,
we make a life by what we give."

kentuckyguy
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:06 am
Has thanked: 70 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: Cidr protocol expectations

Post by kentuckyguy » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:23 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:38 pm
kentuckyguy wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:25 pm
Most of the studies conducted on AI work at dairy farms shows that estrogen levels in other cows have a great affect on mounting.
Cows that are 3-5 day pre or post estrus are most likely to ride other cows in heat. Others could care less.
I have noticed with my small herd that certain cows will ride other cows more often. It’s almost like they will only jump the cows they regularly socialize with.

This year I had some tough ones that didn’t get mounted but were trying to mount every cow that came by them. Cows that displayed this behavior all seemed to be in heat when I bred them.
Have you noticed that cows on the higher end of the pecking order do not get mounted as much as lower pecking order cows? My highest ranking cow rarely gets mounted when she is in estrus. Plus, when a lower pecking order cow or heifer comes in to estrus, sometimes the highest pecking order cow will covet them to herself to the extent that she will punish other cows who mount the one in heat.
Mine do the same thing. That boss cow has a lot to do with heat detection. What was strange was my oldest boss cow would mount 1 other cow when she was in heat but didn’t pay any attention to the others.

Post Reply