Do your steers make the cut?

Backgrounding & feeding questions.
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Lazy M
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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Lazy M » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:01 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:52 pm
Ky hills wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:33 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:46 pm


I knew it would be. People will say "cut most of the group, and only save a few" but if you said "would you like $150k in your hands or $40-50k instead?" most people would change their mind very quickly.

I do like the fact that the steers can be moved out quickly versus the development of the bulls.

The main advantage I see to steering calves out of registered animals is that you have data from the dam and the sire via high density genomic epds which can give you some idea of how they would grade. If you have a sire that is in the top 5% for $B, Marb, ribeye, $QG and $YG and you breed him to cows that are well above breed average for those EPD's, I think it would be safe to say that the steers would grade pretty high.
Brookhill, I very much see your point and am in agreement on leaving Bulls intact if you have a market and can sell them for significantly more than steer prices. That being said not all calves are going to be good quality, and those that are really behind the others in terms of quality should be steered in my opinion. I will also say that just because a calf is out of a herd bull does not mean necessarily that he is inferior to AI sired calves. i have heard breeders talk of other breeders steering those calves from their clean up Bulls, but none of the farms that I have dealt with have done that, some of them have some high dollar herd Bulls and no doubt they can have some good calves.
Just talking to hear my head rattle and throwing ideas out there, if you did not want to use your registered cows for commercial purposes, you could always buy some heifers from some of your bull customers. It would still be at least in part some your cattle genetics.
As for the statements on Shorthorns, there used to be a lot of them around here, made some nice cows too. They were probably replaced in popularity years ago by Herefords. When I was a child there were a lot of Herefords and still several shorthorn Hereford crosses as well as some blue roans. I think the color patterns hurt Shorthorns as much as anything.
My favorite cross is the BWF, you get some good doing feeder calves that way and the heifer calves are in demand.
We have managed to have a herd completely free of recessives, I would be concerned about reintroducing a potential carrier that has not been tested. This is not a vote of no confidence in our clients, but none that I know of DNA test their progeny, not even with a basic Genemax test.

Maybe I could be considered too strict, but I don't want animals with the chance for birth defects. I have not had anything born for many years that was deformed. I've had a stillborn freemartin pair out of a Baldridge Colonel AI, but that's it.

I had someone tell me this recently "people think that steers should be your lower quality animals, but that doesn't make sense to me, I think steers should be as high of quality as you can possibly produce if that is what you are offering" I obviously would not want to steer a perfectly good Hoover Dam son that could be registered, because he would sell in a minute, but I once spoke with an out of state auctioneer and he told me "if you had 25 Hoover Dam steers out of Angus cows, I could get you absolute top dollar for them, and they would sell in a heartbeat"

If you figure that you wean them at 205 and finish them off for 30 days, then you could probably sell them for $1200 a piece, that is $30k for about 8 months work. But if you had 25 Hoover Dam sons and auctioned them at Bluegrass in a sale as yearlings to 14 months, you would probably average at least $2750 on the low end. That's about $70K for keeping them intact and holding them for about another 6 months or so. That's a sizable difference in profits and hence the reason it's hard to justify cutting them.

I'm serious when I say this, please tell me if my reasoning above is incorrect?
Your estimates are too high in this market for both scenarios: you'd receive around $1000/hd with the steers and maybe average $2200/hd with the bulls in a special sales auction.



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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:19 pm

That holding them for 30 days after weaning will bite you with your buyer. They want them wet or 45 days. Crossing Angus and shorthorn will result in yield grades that will get you a heavy discount. Try and then tell us about it.

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by True Grit Farms » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:01 pm

Selling second rate bulls is bad business around here. Here's someone who started with nothing in 1989 and have produced some excellent Angus cattle. And you can buy proven 5-6 year old cows, Kevin is a diehard believer that you produce your best cattle with every new calf crop.
http://www.yonfamilyfarms.com/sales.html
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by 76 Bar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:24 pm

That holding them for 30 days after weaning will bite you with your buyer. They want them wet or 45 days. Crossing Angus and shorthorn will result in yield grades that will get you a heavy discount. Try and then tell us about it.
Bingo.

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:59 pm

Lazy M wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:01 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:52 pm
Ky hills wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:33 pm


Brookhill, I very much see your point and am in agreement on leaving Bulls intact if you have a market and can sell them for significantly more than steer prices. That being said not all calves are going to be good quality, and those that are really behind the others in terms of quality should be steered in my opinion. I will also say that just because a calf is out of a herd bull does not mean necessarily that he is inferior to AI sired calves. i have heard breeders talk of other breeders steering those calves from their clean up Bulls, but none of the farms that I have dealt with have done that, some of them have some high dollar herd Bulls and no doubt they can have some good calves.
Just talking to hear my head rattle and throwing ideas out there, if you did not want to use your registered cows for commercial purposes, you could always buy some heifers from some of your bull customers. It would still be at least in part some your cattle genetics.
As for the statements on Shorthorns, there used to be a lot of them around here, made some nice cows too. They were probably replaced in popularity years ago by Herefords. When I was a child there were a lot of Herefords and still several shorthorn Hereford crosses as well as some blue roans. I think the color patterns hurt Shorthorns as much as anything.
My favorite cross is the BWF, you get some good doing feeder calves that way and the heifer calves are in demand.
We have managed to have a herd completely free of recessives, I would be concerned about reintroducing a potential carrier that has not been tested. This is not a vote of no confidence in our clients, but none that I know of DNA test their progeny, not even with a basic Genemax test.

Maybe I could be considered too strict, but I don't want animals with the chance for birth defects. I have not had anything born for many years that was deformed. I've had a stillborn freemartin pair out of a Baldridge Colonel AI, but that's it.

I had someone tell me this recently "people think that steers should be your lower quality animals, but that doesn't make sense to me, I think steers should be as high of quality as you can possibly produce if that is what you are offering" I obviously would not want to steer a perfectly good Hoover Dam son that could be registered, because he would sell in a minute, but I once spoke with an out of state auctioneer and he told me "if you had 25 Hoover Dam steers out of Angus cows, I could get you absolute top dollar for them, and they would sell in a heartbeat"

If you figure that you wean them at 205 and finish them off for 30 days, then you could probably sell them for $1200 a piece, that is $30k for about 8 months work. But if you had 25 Hoover Dam sons and auctioned them at Bluegrass in a sale as yearlings to 14 months, you would probably average at least $2750 on the low end. That's about $70K for keeping them intact and holding them for about another 6 months or so. That's a sizable difference in profits and hence the reason it's hard to justify cutting them.

I'm serious when I say this, please tell me if my reasoning above is incorrect?
Your estimates are too high in this market for both scenarios: you'd receive around $1000/hd with the steers and maybe average $2200/hd with the bulls in a special sales auction.
I’m getting my data from the Bluegrass Stockyards sales results and as far as Kentucky is concerned around 800 registered Angus bulls sold last year, ones that were recorded by AAA at least, and they brought on average of around $2750. Many sold above that amount. You wouldn’t buy much if any at Boyd’s under $3k.

I wouldn’t have much confidence in a Angus bull that sells at $2k or below.

I can back up my data with actual sales, where are you getting your numbers?
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:01 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:24 pm
That holding them for 30 days after weaning will bite you with your buyer. They want them wet or 45 days. Crossing Angus and shorthorn will result in yield grades that will get you a heavy discount. Try and then tell us about it.
Bingo.
So you guys are telling me that Shorthorns don’t have any carcass merit?
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:05 pm

76 Bar wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:24 pm
That holding them for 30 days after weaning will bite you with your buyer. They want them wet or 45 days. Crossing Angus and shorthorn will result in yield grades that will get you a heavy discount. Try and then tell us about it.
Bingo.
It seems to be working for the Aussie cattlemen, and I think they know a thing or two.

https://shorthornbeef.com.au/shorthorn- ... ectacular/
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Brookhill Angus » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:09 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:01 pm
Selling second rate bulls is bad business around here. Here's someone who started with nothing in 1989 and have produced some excellent Angus cattle. And you can buy proven 5-6 year old cows, Kevin is a diehard believer that you produce your best cattle with every new calf crop.
http://www.yonfamilyfarms.com/sales.html
Then that proves, accordingly to what you said that stacking A.I derived animals year after year is the road to success. Take the best A.I. sire you can use each year and breed him to all of your A.I. daughters, rinse and repeat. Never use a herd bull and if you do, steer all the sons and sell the non A.I. daughters. In 3-5 generations you have an exceptional herd.
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours"

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:29 pm

If you knew anything about shorthorn cattle here in the states you would know that there is very few breeding for anything but the show ring. Your not in Australia.

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by True Grit Farms » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:36 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:09 pm
True Grit Farms wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:01 pm
Selling second rate bulls is bad business around here. Here's someone who started with nothing in 1989 and have produced some excellent Angus cattle. And you can buy proven 5-6 year old cows, Kevin is a diehard believer that you produce your best cattle with every new calf crop.
http://www.yonfamilyfarms.com/sales.html
Then that proves, accordingly to what you said that stacking A.I derived animals year after year is the road to success. Take the best A.I. sire you can use each year and breed him to all of your A.I. daughters, rinse and repeat. Never use a herd bull and if you do, steer all the sons and sell the non A.I. daughters. In 3-5 generations you have an exceptional herd.
Just a different approach to breeding cattle. Usually the cows adverage more money than the bulls. I wonder about the longevity of the Yon cattle, but I feel like I'd of heard if foot issues or fertility was an issue. Our oldest commercial cow is a 2005 model and our oldest registered Angus cow is a 2006 Erica. I had plans to sell them this fall bred, but I'll bury them before I give them away. If they breed back I'm planning on keeping them for another calf. Your cattle are proven to hold up for a long time under your management style, which I feel is a good thing to know. Just hard on the pocket book.
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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by True Grit Farms » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:40 pm

Red Bull Breeder wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:29 pm
If you knew anything about shorthorn cattle here in the states you would know that there is very few breeding for anything but the show ring. Your not in Australia.
https://cattlerange.com/listings/smallw ... entral-ga/
Had to pull 12 out of 14 calves. But they do excellent in the show ring.
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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Red Bull Breeder » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:45 pm

Big birth weights and just a few defects to check for. But as long as it has a chance to win a show its all good.

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by littletom » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:12 pm

I'm with bigfoot how do you have a relationship with cab or sell to cab? You can't be friends with prime either

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Lazy M » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:15 pm

Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:59 pm
Lazy M wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:01 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:52 pm


We have managed to have a herd completely free of recessives, I would be concerned about reintroducing a potential carrier that has not been tested. This is not a vote of no confidence in our clients, but none that I know of DNA test their progeny, not even with a basic Genemax test.

Maybe I could be considered too strict, but I don't want animals with the chance for birth defects. I have not had anything born for many years that was deformed. I've had a stillborn freemartin pair out of a Baldridge Colonel AI, but that's it.

I had someone tell me this recently "people think that steers should be your lower quality animals, but that doesn't make sense to me, I think steers should be as high of quality as you can possibly produce if that is what you are offering" I obviously would not want to steer a perfectly good Hoover Dam son that could be registered, because he would sell in a minute, but I once spoke with an out of state auctioneer and he told me "if you had 25 Hoover Dam steers out of Angus cows, I could get you absolute top dollar for them, and they would sell in a heartbeat"

If you figure that you wean them at 205 and finish them off for 30 days, then you could probably sell them for $1200 a piece, that is $30k for about 8 months work. But if you had 25 Hoover Dam sons and auctioned them at Bluegrass in a sale as yearlings to 14 months, you would probably average at least $2750 on the low end. That's about $70K for keeping them intact and holding them for about another 6 months or so. That's a sizable difference in profits and hence the reason it's hard to justify cutting them.

I'm serious when I say this, please tell me if my reasoning above is incorrect?
Your estimates are too high in this market for both scenarios: you'd receive around $1000/hd with the steers and maybe average $2200/hd with the bulls in a special sales auction.
I’m getting my data from the Bluegrass Stockyards sales results and as far as Kentucky is concerned around 800 registered Angus bulls sold last year, ones that were recorded by AAA at least, and they brought on average of around $2750. Many sold above that amount. You wouldn’t buy much if any at Boyd’s under $3k.

I wouldn’t have much confidence in a Angus bull that sells at $2k or below.

I can back up my data with actual sales, where are you getting your numbers?
You're right; cheapest bull I bought from Boyd's was $3100. Most have been around $4.5-5k. No offense, but you ain't Boyd's. Went to a pretty big sale at CKAA auction this past weekend. Nice yearling bulls averaged $2100.

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Re: Do your steers make the cut?

Post by Lazy M » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:29 pm

Lazy M wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:15 pm
Brookhill Angus wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:59 pm
Lazy M wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:01 pm

Your estimates are too high in this market for both scenarios: you'd receive around $1000/hd with the steers and maybe average $2200/hd with the bulls in a special sales auction.
I’m getting my data from the Bluegrass Stockyards sales results and as far as Kentucky is concerned around 800 registered Angus bulls sold last year, ones that were recorded by AAA at least, and they brought on average of around $2750. Many sold above that amount. You wouldn’t buy much if any at Boyd’s under $3k.

I wouldn’t have much confidence in a Angus bull that sells at $2k or below.

I can back up my data with actual sales, where are you getting your numbers?
You're right; cheapest bull I bought from Boyd's was $3100. Most have been around $4.5-5k. No offense, but you ain't Boyd's. Went to a pretty big sale at CKAA auction this past weekend. Nice yearling bulls averaged $2100.
To clarify: if Boyd sold 25 bulls in a special sale at Bluegrass, they'd probably avg $3k+ but you must realize that Boyd's name will add considerable name value to the bulls

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