How much inbreeding is acceptable?

Got a calving or breeding question? Get an answer.
Carnivore
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 225
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:44 pm
Location: Washington

How much inbreeding is acceptable?

Post by Carnivore » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:36 pm

How does one grow a herd without having the bull start servicing his daughters? And, if that happens, what are the concerns? How about a bull who services his mother?



KMacGinley
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1859
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:08 am
Location: Missouri Ozarks

Bull

Post by KMacGinley » Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:53 pm

Most people get a new bull after a couple of years. :)

Bama
GURU
GURU
Posts: 1855
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:21 pm
Location: NW Alabama

Post by Bama » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:13 pm

You will get a lot of differant views on this, some folks do it and call it line breeding. It brings out the best in them as well as the worst. Most of the time the worst in my opinion. I wouldn't do it with granddaughters.
Culling solves 75% of your problems.

User avatar
VanC
GURU
GURU
Posts: 5174
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:38 pm
Location: East Central Illinois
Been thanked: 1 time

Post by VanC » Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:23 pm

I have heard that breeding 2 animals that are more than 50% related is a no-no. If a bull and cow have the same sire but their dams are unrelated or vice versa its OK. Breeding a cow back to her sire or a bull to his dam would not be OK. Not my rules, just something I read somewhere. Others would probably disagree with this.

User avatar
msscamp
wannabe
wannabe
Posts: 10701
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Wyoming

Re: How much inbreeding is acceptable?

Post by msscamp » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:50 pm

Carnavore wrote:How does one grow a herd without having the bull start servicing his daughters? And, if that happens, what are the concerns? How about a bull who services his mother?


Most people have anywhere from 2 - who know's how many bulls depending on the number of cows in the herd and the number of lineages. I am not a big believer in line-breeding (also known as in-breeding when a wreck happens), but that is just me and the way I was taught. We use ear marks to designate bloodlines in our cattle so we know who bred what and the resulting lineage in the calves and subsequent replacement heifers. Eventually you reach a point that one or more of your bulls are related to the majority of your herd and he/they are then replaced by fresh bloodlines. This is where AI comes in real handy - variety of bloodlines and traits to choose from and no bull to maintain on the off season. Come breeding season we sort them up according to earmarks and each group is put into a different pasture with the appropriate bull. Hope this helps.
Women and cats are going to do what they want, men and dogs would be wise to accept this.

User avatar
aplusmnt
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3977
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: Southeast Kansas

Re: How much inbreeding is acceptable?

Post by aplusmnt » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:17 am

msscamp wrote:
Carnavore wrote:How does one grow a herd without having the bull start servicing his daughters? And, if that happens, what are the concerns? How about a bull who services his mother?


Most people have anywhere from 2 - who know's how many bulls depending on the number of cows in the herd and the number of lineages. I am not a big believer in line-breeding (also known as in-breeding when a wreck happens), but that is just me and the way I was taught. We use ear marks to designate bloodlines in our cattle so we know who bred what and the resulting lineage in the calves and subsequent replacement heifers. Eventually you reach a point that one or more of your bulls are related to the majority of your herd and he/they are then replaced by fresh bloodlines. This is where AI comes in real handy - variety of bloodlines and traits to choose from and no bull to maintain on the off season. Come breeding season we sort them up according to earmarks and each group is put into a different pasture with the appropriate bull. Hope this helps.


Ear Marks? Are you talking like they do pigs? Or Ear tags?
Readers: Beware fore I am a Janitor and know not what I speak of!

Donald

User avatar
dun
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 47334
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:34 am
Location: MO Ozarks
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: How much inbreeding is acceptable?

Post by dun » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:58 am

aplusmnt wrote:Ear Marks? Are you talking like they do pigs? Or Ear tags?


I don;t know what msscamp is refering to, but ear marking is a pretty common practice in te western states. On one reservation where all of the cattle are run in common I've seen cows that looked like their ears had been cut with pinking shears they were notched.

dun

User avatar
msscamp
wannabe
wannabe
Posts: 10701
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Wyoming

Re: How much inbreeding is acceptable?

Post by msscamp » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:49 am

aplusmnt wrote:
msscamp wrote:Most people have anywhere from 2 - who know's how many bulls depending on the number of cows in the herd and the number of lineages. I am not a big believer in line-breeding (also known as in-breeding when a wreck happens), but that is just me and the way I was taught. We use ear marks to designate bloodlines in our cattle so we know who bred what and the resulting lineage in the calves and subsequent replacement heifers. Eventually you reach a point that one or more of your bulls are related to the majority of your herd and he/they are then replaced by fresh bloodlines. This is where AI comes in real handy - variety of bloodlines and traits to choose from and no bull to maintain on the off season. Come breeding season we sort them up according to earmarks and each group is put into a different pasture with the appropriate bull. Hope this helps.


Ear Marks? Are you talking like they do pigs? Or Ear tags?


Actually we use both. Ear tags for identification of an individual animal and ear marks (notch out of the bottom of the right ear is Hacksaw bloodline, notch out of the end of the left ear is another bloodline, etc.)
Women and cats are going to do what they want, men and dogs would be wise to accept this.

User avatar
msscamp
wannabe
wannabe
Posts: 10701
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Wyoming

Re: How much inbreeding is acceptable?

Post by msscamp » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:54 am

dun wrote:
aplusmnt wrote:Ear Marks? Are you talking like they do pigs? Or Ear tags?


On one reservation where all of the cattle are run in common I've seen cows that looked like their ears had been cut with pinking shears they were notched.

dun


:shock: We've never had ears that looked like that. We're small enough now that we have no need for more than a single notch in one ear. Even when we were doing this full time, we rarely had more than one notch in each ear. We also use an ear-marking tool, not a pocket-knife.
Women and cats are going to do what they want, men and dogs would be wise to accept this.

User avatar
dun
Mentor
Mentor
Posts: 47334
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:34 am
Location: MO Ozarks
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: How much inbreeding is acceptable?

Post by dun » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:24 am

msscamp wrote:
dun wrote:
aplusmnt wrote:Ear Marks? Are you talking like they do pigs? Or Ear tags?


On one reservation where all of the cattle are run in common I've seen cows that looked like their ears had been cut with pinking shears they were notched.

dun


:shock: We've never had ears that looked like that. We're small enough now that we have no need for more than a single notch in one ear. Even when we were doing this full time, we rarely had more than one notch in each ear. We also use an ear-marking tool, not a pocket-knife.


There were probalby 25-30 owners all with one common brand. They used both ears in combination. The x-chiefs animals were the only ones without an ear mark.

dun

User avatar
ENNOT
Trail Boss
Trail Boss
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:08 pm
Location: WA

Post by ENNOT » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:03 pm

Not trying to knock you msscamp, but why not just keep some sort of notes with the bloodlines instead of ear marks. We use ear notches for identifaction that they are our cattle, but use a spreadsheet with breeding and bloodline info. It seems like it could get confusing to use notches for bloodlines.

User avatar
msscamp
wannabe
wannabe
Posts: 10701
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Wyoming

Post by msscamp » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:50 pm

ENNOT wrote:Not trying to knock you msscamp, but why not just keep some sort of notes with the bloodlines instead of ear marks. We use ear notches for identifaction that they are our cattle, but use a spreadsheet with breeding and bloodline info. It seems like it could get confusing to use notches for bloodlines.


No problem, it's just easier for us. We can look at them and know who the sire is instead of having to carry around notebooks or go back to the house and look it up. It really isn't as confusing as it sounds. :lol: :lol:
Women and cats are going to do what they want, men and dogs would be wise to accept this.

User avatar
aplusmnt
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3977
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: Southeast Kansas

Post by aplusmnt » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:29 am

msscamp wrote:
ENNOT wrote:Not trying to knock you msscamp, but why not just keep some sort of notes with the bloodlines instead of ear marks. We use ear notches for identifaction that they are our cattle, but use a spreadsheet with breeding and bloodline info. It seems like it could get confusing to use notches for bloodlines.


No problem, it's just easier for us. We can look at them and know who the sire is instead of having to carry around notebooks or go back to the house and look it up. It really isn't as confusing as it sounds. :lol: :lol:


I thought it sounded pretty simple system for those using more than one bull. Well except for the poor calves getting them ears hacked on :D
Readers: Beware fore I am a Janitor and know not what I speak of!

Donald

User avatar
msscamp
wannabe
wannabe
Posts: 10701
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Wyoming

Post by msscamp » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:37 am

aplusmnt wrote:
msscamp wrote:
ENNOT wrote:Not trying to knock you msscamp, but why not just keep some sort of notes with the bloodlines instead of ear marks. We use ear notches for identifaction that they are our cattle, but use a spreadsheet with breeding and bloodline info. It seems like it could get confusing to use notches for bloodlines.


No problem, it's just easier for us. We can look at them and know who the sire is instead of having to carry around notebooks or go back to the house and look it up. It really isn't as confusing as it sounds. :lol: :lol:


I thought it sounded pretty simple system for those using more than one bull. Well except for the poor calves getting them ears hacked on :D


Their ears aren't 'hacked off'. A notch is probably a 1/4" wide and a 1/4" deep in a v-shape. They rarely even bawl - they pitch more of a fit with ear-tagging than with ear-marking.
Women and cats are going to do what they want, men and dogs would be wise to accept this.

User avatar
aplusmnt
GURU
GURU
Posts: 3977
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: Southeast Kansas

Post by aplusmnt » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:48 am

msscamp wrote:
aplusmnt wrote:
msscamp wrote:
ENNOT wrote:Not trying to knock you msscamp, but why not just keep some sort of notes with the bloodlines instead of ear marks. We use ear notches for identifaction that they are our cattle, but use a spreadsheet with breeding and bloodline info. It seems like it could get confusing to use notches for bloodlines.


No problem, it's just easier for us. We can look at them and know who the sire is instead of having to carry around notebooks or go back to the house and look it up. It really isn't as confusing as it sounds. :lol: :lol:


I thought it sounded pretty simple system for those using more than one bull. Well except for the poor calves getting them ears hacked on :D


Their ears aren't 'hacked off'. A notch is probably a 1/4" wide and a 1/4" deep in a v-shape. They rarely even bawl - they pitch more of a fit with ear-tagging than with ear-marking.


Just joking, thinking of them squealing pigs that we notched last year, Probably same notch er they use on pigs, at least sounds like it.

We have never used something like this on cattle, but we have an older cow we bought that has clean cut notch right at tip of ear, always wondered what happened to her, it looked to clean cut to be an accident. Might have been someone else that did something like this.
Readers: Beware fore I am a Janitor and know not what I speak of!

Donald

Post Reply