Claw or Angle?

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Air gator
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Claw or Angle?

Post by Air gator » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:57 pm

What do you look at first on a bull's feet...claw or angle? What's the first thing that will cause problems...angle or claws? So, Baldridge Bronc and his brothers have really good epds for Claw and average for Angle. So, using them would be a step in the right direction but would you really have to use a bull who is really good on both? Thanks in advance.



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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by Bright Raven » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:00 pm

In Simmental, I have been more concerned about claw issues. The long claws or twisted claws. Not many. I got one now that has a slight up turn at the distal end of the claw. Certainly not a screw claw but not pretty.
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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by Ebenezer » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:56 pm

Angle. It influences/exacerbates claw defects especially on the rear. On the front the real claw problems will not need a booster. Odd thing on the AAA EPD: if a bull has 0.5 he is breed average. If he is 0.00 he is expected to change (improve) the scores on his offspring by -0.05. A move in the right direction but not a complete overhaul in one effort.

I tend to believe that the hoof score will miss the Angus that will founder later in life due to a genetic predisposition to founder. That issue also exists as a reality.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by cow pollinater » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:30 pm

Angle. Ebenezer is dead on.
Feet and leg traits are only around 15% heritability so there's a long road to recovery ahead for anyone that has problems.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by Ebenezer » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:53 am

I will ask a sacrilegious question. Is a hoof with a inter hook shape really "bad" if there are never any overgrowth problems? If it is a "bad hoof", all of the Band line of Angus would have been culled including Traveler. But the hooves were not problems like the ones that are trying to be eradicated by the AAA today. It was just a known hoof shape more like a 6.0 or 6.5.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by W.B. » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:01 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:53 am
I will ask a sacrilegious question. Is a hoof with a inter hook shape really "bad" if there are never any overgrowth problems? If it is a "bad hoof", all of the Band line of Angus would have been culled including Traveler. But the hooves were not problems like the ones that are trying to be eradicated by the AAA today. It was just a known hoof shape more like a 6.0 or 6.5.
I don’t necessarily think some hook is bad. Any overbook is obviously a problem. Hoof wall structure is important and if you don’t have it, well you don’t have much. I have mixed feelings as to how much the foot epds will help. It should identify the really bad ones and get them out of circulation sooner than before.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by Katpau » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:13 am

I wasn't aware cattle foundered. I assume that is from grain? I've never seen any reason to grain commercial beef cattle unless they are being prepared for slaughter. Being strictly a cow/calf producer, I suppose that is why I've never seen a cow founder. To me the greatest value of cattle is their ability to harvest grass from landscapes that are otherwise of little value, and turn that grass into meat. I often find it surprising when someone on this forum shows a photo of their cattle on grass that my cattle would think was heaven, and then go on to mention giving their cattle grain. In this part of the country grain is relatively expensive while the grass that grows up in the hills is readily available and a cheap source of gain. The cattle have the added value in this area of reducing the chances of devastating wildfires. The Midwest is a very different environment with less available grazing and cheaper grain.

I appreciate the new foot scores and look forward to increasing accuracy that more reporting should assist. Scoring feet is subjective and time consuming so I doubt these scores will ever be as accurate as weights and height but these scores may help me avoid bulls that could cause foot problems in the future.

Foot problems are probably more prevalent in some environments then in others. I've seen few foot problems in my own herd. Most of the cattle around here walk a fair distance while grazing over ground that wears their feet. I think that is good for the feet and prevents them from getting long toes. I would guess cattle raised on rocky ground might actually see less problems than ones raised on soft footing. The few foot problems we have encountered over the years were mostly in non Angus cattle. My cattle are all Angus now, but in the past my herd was pretty diverse. The one cow I remember as having the worse feet ever, was a Hereford / Murrey Grey cross. She was the result of a neighbors MG bull getting in with the cows back about 20+ years ago. She had screw claw and we trimmed her toes when she was only two, and nursing her first calf. The first and last time I've ever trimmed a cows feet. I knew she should be culled, but she was pregnant and we ended up leaving her in the herd only to have her prolapse. Our first and only prolapse in this herd. It was natures way of saying we should have culled her when we weaned her calf. I have no idea why she prolapsed then, since she was still months away from calving.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by 76 Bar » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:51 pm

Concur with Ebenezer, CP & WB's thoughts. Angle is a refection of structure/conformation be it good bad or ugly.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by Redgully » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:57 pm

I alway struggle to work out the technicalities of feet. I just know when i see bad feet and wonder why nothing was done about it. The following photos are of a 5yr old cow i bred. Her mother had terrible feet but i selected the best bull for feet i could. I am happy with the result. Could you guys critique them so i know what i should be looking for. Personally i would like to see more depth of heel. First two are front foot second two back.
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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by Ebenezer » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:48 am

Opinion: a bit more angle is needed. But if you are not trimming, they are functional. I'd hesitate to keep a son from her to use.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by Redgully » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:07 am

Ebenezer wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:48 am
Opinion: a bit more angle is needed. But if you are not trimming, they are functional. I'd hesitate to keep a son from her to use.
I don't trim, i can see what you are saying, especially the back pastern is very straight. I have a daughter from her who is only 2 months but i selected a bull with a bit more angle and hopefully a little bit bigger feet and a touch more heel. Very interested to see how she grows out. Just so hard in red polls as so few bulls available and of course you don't want to lose other traits chasing finer traits. Thanks for the feedback.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by W.B. » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:02 pm

Katpau wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:13 am
I wasn't aware cattle foundered. I assume that is from grain? I've never seen any reason to grain commercial beef cattle unless they are being prepared for slaughter. Being strictly a cow/calf producer, I suppose that is why I've never seen a cow founder. To me the greatest value of cattle is their ability to harvest grass from landscapes that are otherwise of little value, and turn that grass into meat. I often find it surprising when someone on this forum shows a photo of their cattle on grass that my cattle would think was heaven, and then go on to mention giving their cattle grain. In this part of the country grain is relatively expensive while the grass that grows up in the hills is readily available and a cheap source of gain. The cattle have the added value in this area of reducing the chances of devastating wildfires. The Midwest is a very different environment with less available grazing and cheaper grain.

I appreciate the new foot scores and look forward to increasing accuracy that more reporting should assist. Scoring feet is subjective and time consuming so I doubt these scores will ever be as accurate as weights and height but these scores may help me avoid bulls that could cause foot problems in the future.

Foot problems are probably more prevalent in some environments then in others. I've seen few foot problems in my own herd. Most of the cattle around here walk a fair distance while grazing over ground that wears their feet. I think that is good for the feet and prevents them from getting long toes. I would guess cattle raised on rocky ground might actually see less problems than ones raised on soft footing. The few foot problems we have encountered over the years were mostly in non Angus cattle. My cattle are all Angus now, but in the past my herd was pretty diverse. The one cow I remember as having the worse feet ever, was a Hereford / Murrey Grey cross. She was the result of a neighbors MG bull getting in with the cows back about 20+ years ago. She had screw claw and we trimmed her toes when she was only two, and nursing her first calf. The first and last time I've ever trimmed a cows feet. I knew she should be culled, but she was pregnant and we ended up leaving her in the herd only to have her prolapse. Our first and only prolapse in this herd. It was natures way of saying we should have culled her when we weaned her calf. I have no idea why she prolapsed then, since she was still months away from calving.
Prolapse and bad feet go hand in hand. One problem exacerbates the other.

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by Redgully » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:09 pm

W.B. wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:02 pm
Prolapse and bad feet go hand in hand. One problem exacerbates the other.
What is the underlying cause?

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Re: Claw or Angle?

Post by W.B. » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:47 am

Redgully wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:09 pm
W.B. wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:02 pm
Prolapse and bad feet go hand in hand. One problem exacerbates the other.
What is the underlying cause?
Some are genetically predispositioned to prolapse. Bad feet tend to make it a reality sooner than later. I haven’t seen a vaginal prolapse in our herd for several years but we use to get 3 to 5 a year. I don’t miss sewing them up even a little bit. The labor end of the cow calf business is getting more scarce by the day in this area.

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