A (seemingly) novel idea

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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Nesikep » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:51 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:
Nesikep wrote:I think it could make for a suited, hardy animal, but it might not equate to profitable... Any vaccination, mineral, or anything else?


Free choice mineral.

Vaccinations at weaning on the new calves.

Vaccinations at preg checking on the bred calves.

Hay if lots of ice or snow, but generally they eat via managed pastures and stock piled grass.

So there will be some management (glad to hear it)I just always wonder with an operation of that size, and not doing paternity tests on your best calves (in a normal management scenario), how do you know what bulls are outstanding and really worth keeping around
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:31 pm

WalnutCrest wrote:but he thinks lots about grass and forage availability ...July 15, 2018 -- all 2017 bull calves turned out with all cows and heifers


How is cow culling handled as the herd size increases?

Why not sell some bulls/steers the first year?
Last edited by Stocker Steve on Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:38 pm

Rafter S wrote:
Nesikep wrote:Gotta put an arse on them bison somehow!


Limis might do it.


Saw a PBS special on huge wolves and their main food source - - the woods bison. The editor was very concerned during the entire show about how hard it was to kill a bison, and weather all the wolf pups might starve... :(

Are your Limis mean enough to take on a 150# wolf?
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Stocker Steve » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:52 pm

[quote="WalnutCrest"]From a friend who is thinking low input, low stress. He could not care less about pedigrees, color or polled status ... but he thinks lots about grass and forage availability ...]

Then he should not be messing with mongrel cows. :nod:

Either lease out the pasture to someone else, or just run stockers in the summer and go to the beach in the winter. :idea:
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Son of Butch » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:11 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:Saw a PBS special on huge wolves and their main food source - - the woods bison.
The editor was very concerned during the entire show about how hard it was to kill a bison, and weather
all the wolf pups might starve... :(

Ah yes - nature shows, this week's hero is next week's villain.
One week they have you cheering for the predator to catch the bunny.
Next week they have you cheering for the bunny.

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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Nesikep » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:46 pm

Stocker Steve wrote:
Rafter S wrote:
Nesikep wrote:Gotta put an arse on them bison somehow!


Limis might do it.


Saw a PBS special on huge wolves and their main food source - - the woods bison. The editor was very concerned during the entire show about how hard it was to kill a bison, and weather all the wolf pups might starve... :(

Are your Limis mean enough to take on a 150# wolf?

If I was concerned about wolves, Horned Salers would be there.. I know they're quite capable of taking on a number of wolves as a herd.. they actually behave like bison and surround the calves, and all the pointy bits at the intruders. Fellow a ways north of me never used to lose calves to wolves while he ran high % Salers, then started losing a lot more as he got more into Angus.. he's looking for a 50/50 mix or so now
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Stocker Steve » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:57 am

Nesikep wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote: Are your Limis mean enough to take on a 150# wolf?


If I was concerned about wolves, Horned Salers would be there.. I know they're quite capable of taking on a number of wolves as a herd.. they actually behave like bison and surround the calves, and all the pointy bits at the intruders. Fellow a ways north of me never used to lose calves to wolves while he ran high % Salers, then started losing a lot more as he got more into Angus.. he's looking for a 50/50 mix or so now


In the "Will the Cute Wolf Pups Starve" drama :cry2: most of the footage was shot from a helicopter. The attacked bison would usually herd up in a cluster initially and there would be a stand off, but if they broke ranks and ran then the wolves would often the pull down an isolated bison or two. Usually smaller ones. One herd they covered had zero calves. Must be some serious natural selection going on there...
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:09 am

Stocker Steve wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:but he thinks lots about grass and forage availability ...July 15, 2018 -- all 2017 bull calves turned out with all cows and heifers


How is cow culling handled as the herd size increases?

Why not sell some bulls/steers the first year?


In his mind, enough will die or not rebreed that the herd will not be larger than the land can sustain.

And, imo, when it's time to implement that piece of it (wintering a bazillion intact bull calves), that he'll see the wisdom of (cutting and?) selling at least 2/3 of them.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:14 am

Stocker Steve wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:From a friend who is thinking low input, low stress. He could not care less about pedigrees, color or polled status ... but he thinks lots about grass and forage availability ...


Then he should not be messing with mongrel cows. :nod:


What does the pedigree status of your livestock have to do with quality of forage?

Stocker Steve wrote:Either lease out the pasture to someone else, or just run stockers in the summer and go to the beach in the winter. :idea:


Custom grazing stockers is part of his plan, too.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:19 am

Nesikep wrote:
WalnutCrest wrote:
Nesikep wrote:I think it could make for a suited, hardy animal, but it might not equate to profitable... Any vaccination, mineral, or anything else?


Free choice mineral.

Vaccinations at weaning on the new calves.

Vaccinations at preg checking on the bred calves.

Hay if lots of ice or snow, but generally they eat via managed pastures and stock piled grass.

So there will be some management (glad to hear it)I just always wonder with an operation of that size, and not doing paternity tests on your best calves (in a normal management scenario), how do you know what bulls are outstanding and really worth keeping around


My suggestion was to cut down the bull group, DNA test the keepers, then parentage test all calves, keep the ___% of the bulls that sired an above average amount of the calves, then keep back fewer bull calves the next year...with no bull sticking around longer than two breeding seasons.

We will see if (i) he even gets this far in implementing this idea of his, (ii) and if he does what changes he'll make along the way.
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby WalnutCrest » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:41 am

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:So bulls are breeding sisters & dams. What is gained by this?


In his mind, an enormous amount of time.

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:Bulls will be 16 month old and sold in September. Is there a "great" market for bulls in September. Is this his way of being able to raise & to sell older bulls?


I'm pretty sure he's not trying to sell bulls (although I think he possibly could if he'd keep some for a second breeding season after parentage testing the previous year's calf crop).

I believe he has the ear of a few commercial food companies that take care of universities, etc. and they'd buy all of the grass only beef he could raise.

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:I just don't understand what he is trying to accomplish. What am I missing?


He's of the opinion that too many people spend too much time on things that are unrelated to sustainable beef production due to being (at least somewhat) indoctrinated by the large breed associations.

He thinks any increase in death loss he has in the first year or two of transitioning to this type of program will be covered by him having spent less time and money to manage the herd ... and ... most importantly in his mind ... he very strongly believes his cattle will be more vigorous, adapted and genetically able to resist the problem of disease.

Jeanne - Simme Valley wrote:If I turned my heifers back out with the herd in 45 days, I can pretty well guarantee I would have some calves back sucking. To each his own.


Then in his mind, probably that cow won't breed back and she'd get culled. If her daughter allowed her heifer to reattach, she probably wouldn't rebreed, and shed get culled. Etc.

... he's even spent some time toying with the idea of making the dams kick the calves off on their own sweet time and not weaning anyone.

To this particular idea, I believe he'd say, "I want smart cattle, and if the dam isn't smart enough to wean her own calf, I'm not sure I want her around too long anyhow!"
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby dieselbeef » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:26 am

im near some guys that don't do anything to their herd except harvest what calfs they get whenever they can catch em. no health or any inputs except possibly a roll of hay once in a great while. I feed 20 cows 60 rolls and they fed 6 rolls to 40 cows kinda thinkin....over a 4 month period.
theyre making money and paying the taxes..old school...its how they do it
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sooner or later im gonna be all beefmasters...probly be later

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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Muddy » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:45 am

Nesikep wrote:
Stocker Steve wrote:
Rafter S wrote:
Limis might do it.


Saw a PBS special on huge wolves and their main food source - - the woods bison. The editor was very concerned during the entire show about how hard it was to kill a bison, and weather all the wolf pups might starve... :(

Are your Limis mean enough to take on a 150# wolf?

If I was concerned about wolves, Horned Salers would be there.. I know they're quite capable of taking on a number of wolves as a herd.. they actually behave like bison and surround the calves, and all the pointy bits at the intruders. Fellow a ways north of me never used to lose calves to wolves while he ran high % Salers, then started losing a lot more as he got more into Angus.. he's looking for a 50/50 mix or so now

A rodeo ranches up north, had lost bucking bulls to the wolves so I guess they shouldnt have any problems with eating salers and limousins.

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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Nesikep » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:40 am

I'm sure the behavior of a bunch of wild momma cows and bucking bulls are different... I'm quite certain he hasn't selected for docility!
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Re: A (seemingly) novel idea

Postby Allenw » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:25 am

Sounds like a train wreck to me. I can't help but think there will be a lot of crippled animals and some dead animals in the end with a 1 to 1.5 bull to cow ratio.


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