Ethanol

[inbredredneck]

I think Novatech is right. It's all about condensation and outside air (with it's moisture) being introduced into the tank. And there's something called 'phase separation' whereas when the temperatures fluctuate, water and alcohol no longer stay in a mixed state but rather drop to the bottom of the tank. So, when and engine hasn't been run for a long time, the fuel pick-up gets what, on the first few cranks? Alcohol and water. Once this separation occurs (and this includes the separation of some important additives beyond President Bush's ethanol) what happens to the octane rating? It drops. This explains some of our problems with ethanol in fuel but doesn't explain why the inbred guy doesn't have problems with his small engines. My guess is that he is either using a Stabil-type product geared for ethanol or he is draining the fuel tanks on his small engines before storing them. As to no onein the North having problems with ethanol in their small engines? That's just not true.

I sure hope some day I will have burned enough of this product, to be experts like all you fellas who don't burn it.

[hooknline]

Which part are you disputing inbred? The fact that its lower in energy content, the fact that it absorbs moisture, the fact that its a solvent, or the fact that it is indeed the cause of engine problems in some areas of the country?

[1wlimo]

maybe Inbred has fitted a HHO generator to his truck, that is why he beter gas milage

[inbredredneck]

I choose to believe what my mechanic said and if I'm forced to use this crap then I guess I'll have to buy the stabilizer. Just another unnecessary cost.

See he is teaching you.

Yes, its a tough job but it is possible. Oh, BTW, you cannot compare relative humidities without also comparing the dew points. The according to the weather data Mn dew yearly average is 37.3 and Florida's is 62 thats why we typically run fans in our crowding areas and I must assume ya'll don't.

It makes zero difference if your dewpoints are higher or not as the ratio between air temp and dewpoints are obviously the same. Thus Orlando has no more water in the air than we do in Rochester MN.

[John SD]

I'm late venturing into this party, but I wonder if anyone has considered maybe ethanol isn't the cause of their problems? Might be the fact that modern gasoline (and diesel for that matter) is crap and has limited shelf life. Gas used to maintain its quality for a year or more ethanol or not. Now it goes stale in 3 mos.

I've used E10 for 30 years in every gasoline engine on the place with no problems. Lots of run time in B&S engines pumping water, 2-strokes, '50s gas tractors, '60s, '70s and '80s cars and trucks.Currently my '78 Impala has a tankful of E24 from a blender pump in town. The price was $2.91 for 91 octane fuel. Runs great on that mix.

My policy is to always purchase fuel containing ethanol as long as the price is equal or cheaper than unleaded. Around here 89 octane E10 is generally priced 5-10 cents lower than 85 octane regular unleaded. Premium 91 octane unleaded where available is another 10 cents on top of that.

[inbredredneck]

Which part are you disputing inbred? The fact that its lower in energy content, the fact that it absorbs moisture, the fact that its a solvent, or the fact that it is indeed the cause of engine problems in some areas of the country?

I have come to the conclusion that with my limited exposure to the product (almost 20 years, 17 of it forced), compared to you southern fellas vast unending knowledge of the product, I must no longer dispute what it does or does not do. You are far more schooled in the product.

However a couple final facts. If it is a solvent it is very tasty, it is no lower in energy than any other oxygenate, it has never caused me an engine problem in 20 years,(of course most of my equipment has a fuel filter), and if it does indeed absorb moisture as you suggest, it has the same opportunity to absorb it here in MN as it does there in Florida and we do not have ice in the filters during the winter.

But again I will bow down to your vast knowledge and repeated exposure to the product for the last 20 years, you would know more than I. Thanks for telling me about all the horrible things ethanol will do to my gas engines, I will probably lay awake at night for the rest of my life hoping it doesn't happen, and being thankfull that it has not happened in the last 20 years because it only takes one tankfull for most of you southern fells.

Think about or atleast try, because ethanol as an oxygenate isn't going to go away, your mechanic is a liar.

Our mechanics and oil men fed us that same line of BS 18 years ago and none of it ever happened. Think about the quality of the equipment you are buying nothing last, it is all junk put the blame where it belongs.

[inbredredneck]

I'm late venturing into this party, but I wonder if anyone has considered maybe ethanol isn't the cause of their problems? Might be the fact that modern gasoline (and diesel for that matter) is crap and has limited shelf life. Gas used to maintain its quality for a year or more ethanol or not. Now it goes stale in 3 mos.

I've used E10 for 30 years in every gasoline engine on the place with no problems. Lots of run time in B&S engines pumping water, 2-strokes, '50s gas tractors, '60s, '70s and '80s cars and trucks.Currently my '78 Impala has a tankful of E24 from a blender pump in town. The price was $2.91 for 91 octane fuel. Runs great on that mix.

My policy is to always purchase fuel containing ethanol as long as the price is equal or cheaper than unleaded. Around here 89 octane E10 is generally priced 5-10 cents lower than 85 octane regular unleaded. Premium 91 octane unleaded where available is another 10 cents on top of that.

John it is really funny how these guys who have just started using the product are experts and us fellas who have used it 20 to 30 years are the idiots who don't know anything. Maybe I should go to New York City there must be a guy who cuts meat in that town that can tell me how to raise cattle and do it right?

[hooknline]

Well, seems this us a touchy subject or you. I never said i was an expert. I do understand what the product is though.
As for my mecahnic lying to me, i am my mechanic and will attest to the physical properties and those results personally. Being that ive seen it with my own eyes it's hard to argue with myself

John SD, im not saying that folks up north are making up the fact that they dont have problems.
What i am saying is id sure like to know what the difference is

[James T]

I think Novatech is right. It's all about condensation and outside air (with it's moisture) being introduced into the tank. And there's something called 'phase separation' whereas when the temperatures fluctuate, water and alcohol no longer stay in a mixed state but rather drop to the bottom of the tank. So, when and engine hasn't been run for a long time, the fuel pick-up gets what, on the first few cranks? Alcohol and water. Once this separation occurs (and this includes the separation of some important additives beyond President Bush's ethanol) what happens to the octane rating? It drops. This explains some of our problems with ethanol in fuel but doesn't explain why the inbred guy doesn't have problems with his small engines. My guess is that he is either using a Stabil-type product geared for ethanol or he is draining the fuel tanks on his small engines before storing them. As to no onein the North having problems with ethanol in their small engines? That's just not true.

I sure hope some day I will have burned enough of this product, to be experts like all you fellas who don't burn it.

Do you, by chance, have a personal interest in ethanol? Grow corn for the plants, work for a plant have stock in ethanol companies? If so, it might explain your reluctance to see the light. Unfortunately, ethanol production in Minnesota isn't looking so good. http://minnesota.publicradio.org/displa ... landscape/

As to why some folks might have engine problems; it might be the age of the engine:

(BTW, this is from the Minnesota Center for Automotive Research, Minnesota State University, Mankato)
"Older engines may run a slight risk of degradation of rubber, cork gaskets, and exposed magnesium and aluminum surfaces in the fuel system when using alcohol blends or highly aromatic modern fuels. Older engines may have other susceptibilities as well."

[Jogeephus]

Jogeephus ; What did the mechanic have to do to repair the engine?

Wasn't so much the engine as it was the gas tank and the carburetor. They were trashed with rust and some nasty scum stuff. Both looked like they had been submerged in the atlantic for a few months. Never seen a gas tank rust with gasoline and this is a fairly new piece of equipment. The compressor was carried back to the dealer and this is what he said was the problem so I'll take him on his word since he has always done us right in the past. Didn't realize this was going to be such a touchy subject but I forgot about the subsidies so it just goes to figure if it can't work on its own merits you need to subsidize it to make it work - at least for the chosen few. I'll leave this thread to the mechanics and the meteoroligists to sort out but I promise if I ever want to kill a bunch of cows and draw an insurance check I know who to ask.

[inbredredneck]

I'll leave this thread to the mechanics and the meteoroligists to sort out but I promise if I ever want to kill a bunch of cows and draw an insurance check I know who to ask.

Thats class right there Jogee.

[novatech]

Jogeephus ; What did the mechanic have to do to repair the engine?

Wasn't so much the engine as it was the gas tank and the carburetor. They were trashed with rust and some nasty scum stuff. Both looked like they had been submerged in the atlantic for a few months. Never seen a gas tank rust with gasoline and this is a fairly new piece of equipment.

There is a coating we used on the old metal gas tanks. (After cleaning and electronic rust removal.) We pored it in and rotated the tank until everything was coated. The rust is caused by the condensation formed above the gasoline line. With the ethanol the rust may be forming below the line too because of some sort of chemical reaction, but that's above my head.
The carbs getting gummed up is usually evaporated gasoline. We would strip the carb and boil them out. The new metal and possibly the ethanol may be causing corrosion inside the carb., which of course a rebuild would not cure.
Keeping the tank full and using stable should cure the problem. But if your like me you'll forget to do it when the time comes.
Somebody Mentioned "Seafoam" in an earlier post. I've never been much of a believer in additives. I have a lot of equipment that sits idle from time to time. Someone convinced me to use "Seafoam". Well I have become a believer. I buy it by the gallon now for both my diesel and gasoline engines.

[Jogeephus]

Thanks Nova, I'll look into the sea foam. The problem with the compressor is its on the service truck and is mainly used when I can't get something to the shop. He suggested using the stabilizer and it seems now that I've had the problem everyone I know seems to have known this would happen but me.

Thats class right there Jogee.

Thanks for the compliment Red, when I grow up I have aspirations of becoming like you.

[Fred]

I can still buy non ethanol fuel which I use in my lawnmower,chainsaw,weedeaters and 4 wheelers. Do a search on phase separation of ethanol to learn what can happen to ethanol fuel in your tank.

[inbredredneck]

I can still buy non ethanol fuel which I use in my lawnmower,chainsaw,weedeaters and 4 wheelers. Do a search on phase separation of ethanol to learn what can happen to ethanol fuel in your tank.

I just hope they never introduce this ethanol stuff up here in our gas, it sounds like it is responsible for everything from milk going sour in your fridge, all the way up real bad stuff like nuclear reactor meltdowns on the scale of chernobyl.

It also has been known to cause lochness monster sightings, as well as the complete disappearance of sasquatch, welfare fraud, diarrhea after eating fish sticks, the introduction of double stuff oreos, the costa concordia tipping over, viagra abuse, PMS, NCIS, Jimmy Johnsons record setting 5 consecutive season championships, crappy store beef, WALMART. It was also said to have been the real shooter standing behind the grassy knoll. The list goes on and on.