friendly E+ tall fescue

[midtncattle]

I have concerns about my fecue and if it is toxic. I currently only cut this spot for hay, but am planning on moving cattle to it in future. How can I determine my fescue's toxic levels? Also, if I poision the field and plant friendly E+ tall fescue, will I still not have possibly issues due to contaimination from neighboring fields?

[dun]

Contact your extension office they can point you towards who can test it. Toxic fescue is so persistant that I don;t know if you can ever really totally eradicate it. If I had fescue now I wouldn;t do anything with it other then planting red or white clover to dilute it and plant the friendly stuff somewhere else that has never had the toxic stuff on it. If the existing fescue was planyed more then about 5-6 years ago I'll almost gaurantee it's toxic, the question is how bad. Our feescue was planted oerianlly 75 years ago, any that we plant now has been combined/gleaned from out existing pasture. Once the cows get adapted to it, 2-5 years as long as it's diluted with legumes you won;t have the severe issues with the toxicity

[luke03cr]

There are a few different types of fescue that you can plant. I am assuming you have the Endophyte-infected tall fescue which is in almost all Ky31 seeds. What you would be looking to plant would be ky32 or endophyte free equalivelent, it is a Endophyte free tall fescue seed that does not carry the risks of the infected fescue. The endophyte is a fungus that grows in the cells of the plant which increases its drought hardiness and ability to withstand acidic soils. The trade off is fescue toxosis for your cattle herd. What i would do if you were concerened about this is mow down your suspected infected fescue, then plant you ky32 in the fields you which to graze or bale, i would do this in the fall. Then in the early spring i would plant 6 to 8lbs.of clovers, mix of white and crimmson red for added nitrogen for soil.

[dun]

There are a few different types of fescue that you can plant. I am assuming you have the Endophyte-infected tall fescue which is in almost all Ky31 seeds. What you would be looking to plant would be ky32 or endophyte free equalivelent, it is a Endophyte free tall fescue seed that does not carry the risks of the infected fescue. The endophyte is a fungus that grows in the cells of the plant which increases its drought hardiness and ability to withstand acidic soils. The trade off is fescue toxosis for your cattle herd. What i would do if you were concerened about this is mow down your suspected infected fescue, then plant you ky32 in the fields you which to graze or bale, i would do this in the fall. Then in the early spring i would plant 6 to 8lbs.of clovers, mix of white and crimmson red for added nitrogen for soil.

I would stay away from the endophyte free and go with a friendly endophyte if I just had to plant anything other then the old stand by KY31. The free stuff just never persisted as well as the toxic or friendly

[Banjo]

They say the endophyte is the most problematic in the seed heads. Mowing it a time or two in the spring clipping the seed heads off will take care of it. Right now you should have only blades, that is what you want stockpiling for the winter.
If I were you I would take a look at ....." Persist Orchardgrass" http://www.persistorchardgrass.com/pers ... dgrass.htm
I have been trying some of it and like it so far, I plan on overseeding my fescue pastures, bare spots with it this fall. This will be easier to get a stand with than the endophyte free fescues.

[luke03cr]

Here is some good information from our University that should help you answer your questions.
http://forages.tennessee.edu/Page%202-% ... icity.html

[dun]

Good article, BUT, the spray smother spray method won;t completely eliminate the infected stuff. It took 4-5 years but our WSG field has more and more fescue in it. We did all the steps and it took about 2 years to really get the WSG producing. Now any bare spot either comes up in fescue or crabgrass. The seed bank can lay there for years before it decides it's time to germinate.

[Banjo]

Good article, BUT, the spray smother spray method won;t completely eliminate the infected stuff. It took 4-5 years but our WSG field has more and more fescue in it. We did all the steps and it took about 2 years to really get the WSG producing. Now any bare spot either comes up in fescue or crabgrass. The seed bank can lay there for years before it decides it's time to germinate.

Do you think most people waste money on fescue seed especially and other seed by buying it and sowing it when there is probably plenty already in the seed bank that may only need the soil tickled/scratched a little? What are your/anybody's thoughts on this.

[dun]

Good article, BUT, the spray smother spray method won;t completely eliminate the infected stuff. It took 4-5 years but our WSG field has more and more fescue in it. We did all the steps and it took about 2 years to really get the WSG producing. Now any bare spot either comes up in fescue or crabgrass. The seed bank can lay there for years before it decides it's time to germinate.

Do you think most people waste money on fescue seed especially and other seed by buying it and sowing it when there is probably plenty already in the seed bank that may only need the soil tickled/scratched a little? What are your/anybody's thoughts on this.

To get a dense stand you pretty much have to seed. But that doesn;t mean that something else isn;t going to rear it's ugly head. Usually if you don;t put out enough desireable seed the first thing to take over is some kind of undesirable wee. Around here it's spiny pigweed and mares tail that's usually the first to fill in the void. It's only when you finally get rid of those that the desirable or semi-desirable stuff like fescue, bluegrass, crabgrass, start to fill in. If I have bare spots I typically just throw some clover seed in it.

[Lucky_P]

midtn,
Yes, endophyte-infected fescue can be a problem. But, speaking from past experience, I would never again kill out an established stand of good ol' 'dirty' KY-31 - I'd just manage it - keeping a good stand of legumes(clovers, lespedezas) going to 'dilute' out deleterious effects, while selecting cattle that can perform on it.

Back in the day, when I was still stupid enough to chase 'giverment' dollars from FSA, NRCS, etc., I killed out my KY 31 - and also reclaimed a creekbottom field that had been in corn/soybean rotation for years - planting the orchardgrass/timothy/red clover mix THEY require, though I also mixed in some endophyte-free fescue 'on my own dime'. Looked good the first year...but, timothy only lasts 1-2 years here, endophyte-free fescue turns 'toes-up' at the first hint of drought or overgrazing, red clover only lasts 2-3 years at best, and orchardgrass is about the last thing my cows will eat when they're rotating through the paddocks.
So...I've ended up having to come back, within 3-5 years and re-plant(again, on my own dime). Have done it with Max-Q(novel endophyte) and Persist orchardgrass - both of which have performed well in combination in grazing trials down in Lawrence Co., TN. Probably would have just gone back with KY-31, if it weren't for the wife's thought that she might, one day, want to breed some mares and raise some foals. Certainly was more expensive to seed Max-Q or any of the other novel endophyte varieties than KY-31, but it's performed well here.
Are my cows performing better on Max-Q than they would on KY-31, and was it a wise decision to go that route? I don't know; and without any significant stand of KY-31 on the place anymore, I don't have any way to compare.

Studies have shown that there's minimal, if any, 'migration' of undesirable endophyte into endophyte-free or 'friendly-endophyte' stands from neighboring fields - but if you don't have a 1.5-2 year span between killing off the original high-endophyte stand - and preventing seedlings of that infected stand from becoming established(the endophyte in seed pretty well dies off in the seed after 2 years) - you can have significant 'volunteer' endophyte-infected fescue popping up in a renovated field.

[Banjo]

midtn,
Yes, endophyte-infected fescue can be a problem. But, speaking from past experience, I would never again kill out an established stand of good ol' 'dirty' KY-31 - I'd just manage it - keeping a good stand of legumes(clovers, lespedezas) going to 'dilute' out deleterious effects, while selecting cattle that can perform on it.

Back in the day, when I was still stupid enough to chase 'giverment' dollars from FSA, NRCS, etc., I killed out my KY 31 - and also reclaimed a creekbottom field that had been in corn/soybean rotation for years - planting the orchardgrass/timothy/red clover mix THEY require, though I also mixed in some endophyte-free fescue 'on my own dime'. Looked good the first year...but, timothy only lasts 1-2 years here, endophyte-free fescue turns 'toes-up' at the first hint of drought or overgrazing, red clover only lasts 2-3 years at best, and orchardgrass is about the last thing my cows will eat when they're rotating through the paddocks.
So...I've ended up having to come back, within 3-5 years and re-plant(again, on my own dime). Have done it with Max-Q(novel endophyte) and Persist orchardgrass - both of which have performed well in combination in grazing trials down in Lawrence Co., TN. Probably would have just gone back with KY-31, if it weren't for the wife's thought that she might, one day, want to breed some mares and raise some foals. Certainly was more expensive to seed Max-Q or any of the other novel endophyte varieties than KY-31, but it's performed well here.
Are my cows performing better on Max-Q than they would on KY-31, and was it a wise decision to go that route? I don't know; and without any significant stand of KY-31 on the place anymore, I don't have any way to compare.

Studies have shown that there's minimal, if any, 'migration' of undesirable endophyte into endophyte-free or 'friendly-endophyte' stands from neighboring fields - but if you don't have a 1.5-2 year span between killing off the original high-endophyte stand - and preventing seedlings of that infected stand from becoming established(the endophyte in seed pretty well dies off in the seed after 2 years) - you can have significant 'volunteer' endophyte-infected fescue popping up in a renovated field.

Lucky_P....Tell me how you like the persist orchardgrass good/bad/or indifferent. I planted some last fall and had some equipment malfunction and only got on half of what I intended but it really took off this spring has done really well, it doesn't seem to be the most palatable grass on the block, but really nothing seems to be real palatable to the cows right now except shortgrasses, crabgrass etc. I'm thinking it will be somewhat like fescue this fall with frost on it raising the sugar content.

[Bigfoot]

I am experimenting with some of the pasture on my place. It's in bad shape grass wise. I am being pretty persistent spraying it with 2 4 d. Twice in the spring, and once recently. The most recent didn't kill good though. I'm hopeing letting the fescue spread, and seed out will be better than sewing it down. I have terrible luck planting any kind of grass seed anyway. I did it with my horse pasture last year, and it worked great. The difference was, I would graze it close, rotate the pasture, spray it, then couple weeks later mow it. Kinda an intensive grazing for horses. Through the drought this year I grazed 4 horses on 4 acres. Everybody that comes to my house comments on how thick the grass is. I can't do that on my place for the cows. To labor intensive. I read all of agmans stuff, but I just don't have the time, or water. I hope it works. I am relying on the seed bank/dropped seed for it to work. If my calculations are correct a few pass overs with 2 4 d are going to be substantially cheaper than reseeding.

[Banjo]

I am experimenting with some of the pasture on my place. It's in bad shape grass wise. I am being pretty persistent spraying it with 2 4 d. Twice in the spring, and once recently. The most recent didn't kill good though. I'm hopeing letting the fescue spread, and seed out will be better than sewing it down. I have terrible luck planting any kind of grass seed anyway. I did it with my horse pasture last year, and it worked great. The difference was, I would graze it close, rotate the pasture, spray it, then couple weeks later mow it. Kinda an intensive grazing for horses. Through the drought this year I grazed 4 horses on 4 acres. Everybody that comes to my house comments on how thick the grass is. I can't do that on my place for the cows. To labor intensive. I read all of agmans stuff, but I just don't have the time, or water. I hope it works. I am relying on the seed bank/dropped seed for it to work. If my calculations are correct a few pass overs with 2 4 d are going to be substantially cheaper than reseeding.

You ever heard that Travis Tritt song "Where corn don't grow"? The weeds are high where corn don't grow.....well weeds grow profusely where grass is not growing vigorously. Where grass is continuosly grazed it keeps getting a smaller and smaller root system, you probably heard the saying ...as above,so below. Cattle and Horses and probably every other ruminant animal love short grass for some reason, I guess because its tender. This in turn makes the grass very susceptible to extreme dry and cold weather, and that is why it dies out. Then with a very shallow root system that is also not vigorous then the weeds go crazy, there is nothing in their way.
In my feilds that I converted to rotational grazing this year, I have spots where the fescue has died out in the past and there is nothing but crabgrass/short crabgrass. I will sow those spots with fescue or orchardgrass here in a few weeks. The pasture that I have converted to IRG are definetaly better than the continuous pastures. I have one farm that I haven;t been able to get fenced off for IRG and the ragweeds are going crazy.
Even in IRG grass should not be grazed very short it takes a long time to recover and too much energy is depleted from the roots.
IRG can be done different ways, paddocks for up to three days will work well too. something to think about....

[Lucky_P]

banjo,
OG is about the last thing the cows'll eat - 'specially this time of year - Johnsongrass, crabgrass, clover, various weeds(ragweed, etc), and fescue get eaten first - but with our rotational system, they eat most of everything in the paddock before they move - 1-2 days/paddock.
But... Persist seems to have better palatablility/acceptance than Hallmark, Benchmark, Potomac - all varieties I've planted in the past. They'll at least eat it, even if it is one of the last things they munch; some other varieties, they would hardly touch.

[midtncattle]

Thanks for response I am only 30 minutes from Lawrenceburg. I think I will just add some clover to pasture this year. When is best time to add and how do you know how much to sow?