Fescue

Discuss grasses and how to grow and harvest them.
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sim.-ang.king
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Re: Fescue

Post by sim.-ang.king » Mon May 27, 2019 10:11 am

Just throwing this out there as some added information. If anyone wants to give this a test.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 4.10421428


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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Mon May 27, 2019 10:35 am

bball wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:00 am
Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:23 am
kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:14 am
Thanks for the clarification. But at .68 a lb and let's say an intake of .4 lb a day that would get really expensive. Give me your thoughts on $90 per cow per year for mineral. I'm just figuring off the top of my head so excuse any mistake in the figure. But you get what I'm talking about.
What is getting confused is consumption versus bioavailability.

The elements such as copper, zinc, selenium, magnesium, chloride, calcium, and the other elemental atoms that cows need to function do not occur in elemental form in minerals. They come in compounds. Chelated compounds, oxides, sulfates and carbonates. How these elements are formulated by the manufacturer is ESSENTIAL in order to evaluate the mineral. For example if copper comes in a compound the cow cannot use, it will pass right out the anus or in the urine.

Assuming that consumption is .4 pounds per day per cow of a mineral that is 65 % bioavailable versus one that is 15 % bioavailable. The one that is more bioavailable is going to result in much higher blood levels of all the elements.

Intake is what they eat per day. Uptake is what percent of the intake gets into their cells.
Ron, did you list them in the order of greatest bioavailibilty? I believe cheated is the ideal compound, but never remember the order after that; for carbonates, sulfates, and oxides (as far as best bioavailibilty after chelates).
I did not list them in any order and I didn't list all possibilities. Chelated compounds are touted as being readily available for uptake. In fact, many vitamins are advertised as being chelated for humans. Sulfates are more bioavailable than carbonates or oxides.
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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Mon May 27, 2019 10:39 am

kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:08 am
I can understand that there is cheap minerals.
Ok a related question. How do you know what is really needed? I rotate pastures and always have really good grass like you do. How do the mineral needs differ from a pasture that's short and abused?
To determine what mineral or minerals your cow actually needs would be difficult. You would first have to remove all minerals and supplements you have available to your herd. Then after an appropriate hiatus, you would have to do liver biopsies.

If you had several hundred cows, that would be an economical plan. Then you could afford to have a custom mineral made just for your needs. On operations the size of yours and mine, it will not pencil out.
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Re: Fescue

Post by True Grit Farms » Mon May 27, 2019 10:45 am

I have my doubts if free choice mineral is really needed, it's a salesman job to sell. And if you administer MultiMin 90 a few times per year I can't see where free choice minerals are needed. There's no doubt some cows eat more mineral than others, and I also think some cows just don't eat mineral.
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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Mon May 27, 2019 10:49 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:45 am
I have my doubts if free choice mineral is really needed, it's a salesman job to sell. And if you administer MultiMin 90 a few times per year I can't see where free choice minerals are needed. There's no doubt some cows eat more mineral than others, and I also think some cows just don't eat mineral.

You don't need to eat, they could just put you on an IV. ;-)

I guess you could do that but I have never heard it recommended even by animal scientist or veterinarians who have no stake in the mineral industry.

I see cows that seem to be at the mineral feeder more than other cows. But I don't spend enough time to conclude that some cows don't eat any mineral.
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Re: Fescue

Post by Fire Sweep Ranch » Mon May 27, 2019 12:56 pm

kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:18 am
Since the other topic got locked before I could reply let's continue here.
Fire Sweep Ranch you are correct. I have the same issue with the rotational grazing.. In 5 of my 11 paddocks the fescue is headed out. I'm going to bush hog those starting today.
Me too! This was me today.

Image

And a pasture that I clipped also today. You could hardly see the cows before I clipped the seed heads off!
Image


On the mineral note; you never know what your deficient of without detailed testing. We had liver biopsies done last fall after some specific issues. Our girls are selenium deficient. Even with good mineral, you can have holes.
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Re: Fescue

Post by Brookhill Angus » Mon May 27, 2019 1:52 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:59 am
kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:38 am
TennesseeTuxedo wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:24 am
Re: Feeding cows on fescue grass
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Post by pricefarm » Sun May 26, 2019 9:01 pm

“I never know fescue grass was bad for cattle till I came here. That's basically the only grass we have. If a cow can not make it on what I have to feed it then she moves on down the road somewhere else. Iam not going to spend a fortune buying high dollar minerals and other stuff to try and make a cow do what it is suppose to do.”

Best comment to date on grazing fescue. I do put out medicated mineral, however.
I have read and respect the comments of Brookhill and BR on the mineral each uses. But when I look at $35-$40 a bag I just can't make myself do it.
I have 2 cows now that aren't handling the heat well. Both will get culled before winter. Kinda odd that they are both registered Angus.
But actually I have never had a cow that's not Angus seem to suffer from the fescue and heat. Maybe that's another topic.
Good mineral has far wider health benefits than mitigating fescue toxicity. You are well informed on that.

I would rather pay $34 per 50 pounds and get a 65% uptake than to spend $20 per 50 pounds and get a 15 % uptake. The cheaper mineral in this case is the $34 bag.
Agreed! My gals are handling the heat well, and staying fat, ready for some very special semen to arrive Friday.
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Re: Fescue

Post by True Grit Farms » Mon May 27, 2019 1:56 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:49 am
True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:45 am
I have my doubts if free choice mineral is really needed, it's a salesman job to sell. And if you administer MultiMin 90 a few times per year I can't see where free choice minerals are needed. There's no doubt some cows eat more mineral than others, and I also think some cows just don't eat mineral.

You don't need to eat, they could just put you on an IV. ;-)

I guess you could do that but I have never heard it recommended even by animal scientist or veterinarians who have no stake in the mineral industry.

I see cows that seem to be at the mineral feeder more than other cows. But I don't spend enough time to conclude that some cows don't eat any mineral.
The cows that eat very little to no mineral don't care how much it cost or what the benefits are. At least with MultiMin 90 every cow for sure gets some mineral. We had a similar discussion to this about salt and all the answers to my questions were dodge balls. But do you think a cow can get to much mineral when it's offered free choice?
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Re: Fescue

Post by Bright Raven » Mon May 27, 2019 2:06 pm

True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:56 pm
Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:49 am
True Grit Farms wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:45 am
I have my doubts if free choice mineral is really needed, it's a salesman job to sell. And if you administer MultiMin 90 a few times per year I can't see where free choice minerals are needed. There's no doubt some cows eat more mineral than others, and I also think some cows just don't eat mineral.

You don't need to eat, they could just put you on an IV. ;-)

I guess you could do that but I have never heard it recommended even by animal scientist or veterinarians who have no stake in the mineral industry.

I see cows that seem to be at the mineral feeder more than other cows. But I don't spend enough time to conclude that some cows don't eat any mineral.
The cows that eat very little to no mineral don't care how much it cost or what the benefits are. At least with MultiMin 90 every cow for sure gets some mineral. We had a similar discussion to this about salt and all the answers to my questions were dodge balls. But do you think a cow can get to much mineral when it's offered free choice?
Yes. I suspect some cows INTAKE exceeds her needs and she excretes the excess as waste! That is why Selenium levels in mineral is required to be low - I actually think that the government requirements dictate that it cannot be over a regulated level.

Mineral offered as free choice is a supplement. In an ideal environment, the cow would get all of her minerals in her forage. That does not happen. Producers offer minerals as a supplement to their existing diet.

If you push your cattle like we all do - require a calf every 365 dsys, require her to bred back in a short window, keep her pregnant and lactating, etc. there is going to be a need for mineral supplementation.
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Re: Fescue

Post by TennesseeTuxedo » Mon May 27, 2019 2:07 pm

Hook2.0 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:01 pm
Most mineral excess is secreted through the urinary, digestive system, the lymphatic or the skin Vince.
Take too much vitmain c and you pee awful yellow type of thing
That’s a fact.
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Re: Fescue

Post by True Grit Farms » Mon May 27, 2019 2:24 pm

Hook2.0 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 2:01 pm
Most mineral excess is secreted through the urinary, digestive system, the lymphatic or the skin Vince.
Take too much vitmain c and you pee awful yellow type of thing
True but how about the heavy metals? When you mix different things together there's no telling what the end result will be. MultiMin 90 administered in close proximity with some vaccines can render some vaccines usless. You never give MultiMin 90 and vaccines on the same side of the neck. I feel there's a lot of speculation involved in mineral use.
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Re: Fescue

Post by sstterry » Mon May 27, 2019 4:26 pm

kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:08 am
I can understand that there is cheap minerals.
Ok a related question. How do you know what is really needed? I rotate pastures and always have really good grass like you do. How do the mineral needs differ from a pasture that's short and abused?
Kenny,
Here is a good article from Beef Magazine that addresses this:
As grass dries down, mineral levels can shift dramatically. Grass also becomes higher in lignin as it dries down, and mineral availability decreases.

“It’s also important to remember that a forage test showing you’re meeting basic mineral recommendations does not mean you’re meeting cattle mineral requirements,” says Tjardes. “Recommendations and requirements are two different things – it’s important to meet requirements.”
https://www.beefmagazine.com/feed/4-cat ... s-debunked

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Re: Fescue

Post by SmokinM » Mon May 27, 2019 8:41 pm

Fescue toxicity is definitely linked to maturity and growth rate. The more vegetative it is the lower the level. Cattle really graze it better when it is clipped. I am not sure that a mineral combats fescue toxicity directly but I am a firm believer that they should have it and there is a huge difference in quality. Mine will eat it when they need it, some weeks can’t keep the feeders full, sometimes a bag will last weeks. I think mostly it helps overall health so in turn helps with fescues effects. Generally a more expensive mineral is cheaper to feed by both consumption and results. Not saying $50 a bag is what it takes but low end doesn’t pay for sure. I also have noticed that mineral needs vary a good bit from farm to farm and even fied to field. I am sure forage quality would play a huge part as well.

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Re: Fescue

Post by kenny thomas » Mon May 27, 2019 8:48 pm

Fire Sweep Ranch wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:56 pm
kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:18 am
Since the other topic got locked before I could reply let's continue here.
Fire Sweep Ranch you are correct. I have the same issue with the rotational grazing.. In 5 of my 11 paddocks the fescue is headed out. I'm going to bush hog those starting today.
Me too! This was me today.

Image

And a pasture that I clipped also today. You could hardly see the cows before I clipped the seed heads off!
Image


On the mineral note; you never know what your deficient of without detailed testing. We had liver biopsies done last fall after some specific issues. Our girls are selenium deficient. Even with good mineral, you can have holes.
Wish my land was that flat. Even my hayland is steep.
My thoughts only, don't bet the farm on them. KT

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Re: Fescue

Post by kenny thomas » Mon May 27, 2019 8:55 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:39 am
kenny thomas wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 9:08 am
I can understand that there is cheap minerals.
Ok a related question. How do you know what is really needed? I rotate pastures and always have really good grass like you do. How do the mineral needs differ from a pasture that's short and abused?
[/quote

To determine what mineral or minerals your cow actually needs would be difficult. You would first have to remove all minerals and supplements you have available to your herd. Then after an appropriate hiatus, you would have to do liver biopsies.

If you had several hundred cows, that would be an economical plan. Then you could afford to have a custom mineral made just for your needs. On operations the size of yours and mine, it will not pencil out.
Nothing pencils out on my farm.
I ask VA Extension Service to assist me to develop a mineral for the area. I offered to do soil tests, forage tests, even bleed the cows to get blood levels. Never happened.
My thoughts only, don't bet the farm on them. KT

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