Cattle Judging

Discuss the ins and outs of the showring.
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Son of Butch
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Cattle Judging

Postby Son of Butch » Thu May 11, 2017 5:50 pm

Hoard's Dairyman has annual dairy cow judging contest 5 breeds Ayrshire, Brown Swiss, Guernsey, Holstein and Jersey

4 cows in each class, all you have to do is rank each class ie Ayrshire 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th
Brown Swiss class 1-2-3-4 and so on for each of the 5 classes
5 classes of 4 cows per class = 20 cows total

This year 14,871 entries
How many got all 20 cows placed correctly according to the official judges?
0 as in zero out of 14,871 tries
Contest runs every year and I can't remember the last time anyone has ever agreed with the judges on all 20 cows

Moral of the story... the judges never get them right!
or
Perhaps the moral is... judging show cattle is a waste of time?
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby Boot Jack Bulls » Thu May 11, 2017 6:56 pm

The moral of the story is that judging anything is simply one person's opinion that day....
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby Aaron » Thu May 11, 2017 8:17 pm

Problem with judging multiple breeds like that is that the average Joe Farmer has a type in his head and tries to make every breed fit that type. A high grading type Holstein is a p*sspoor Jersey and vice versa. Have to know your breed types well enough to know what is being sought out from each group.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby Bigfoot » Thu May 11, 2017 8:26 pm

You'd think drawing numbers from a hat would yield better results.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby greybeard » Thu May 11, 2017 8:58 pm

someone will undoubtedly be along soon to explain that the ones with black hide are the only ones deserving to be ranked very high.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby Son of Butch » Thu May 11, 2017 10:43 pm

Boot Jack Bulls wrote:The moral of the story is that judging anything is simply one person's opinion that day....

Not true, as Miss America has a panel of 10 judges and olympic figure skating and gymnastics are also judged by panels.
And carcass judging contests are measurable and quantifiable eliminating color bias and one person's opinion.

In Hoard's contest all cattle are judged from pictures only by both the judges and contestants.
Each breed are from the same herd and photographed by the same professional photographer from 3 views.
Entries are divided into 8 divisions including college dairy/livestock judging teams, 4H clubs, FFA teams ect.

After the contest is over each Cow's production records are published.
There has never been any correlation between the judge's official placing and the cows actual production.
Proving the moral of the story is cattle judging and the Showring is a waste of time. And counter productive to profitability.

The only worth while beef showring contest are the ones followed by a carcass contest with hides off and all are weighed, measured and graded. They are real learning experiences and the placings actually mean something.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby M-5 » Fri May 12, 2017 7:20 am

The equation is PEOPLE. They will never agree. I a saw judging contest last November that I would have thought 100% of judges could have seen the flaws on the sow that was being shown but unfortunately a little less than half 48% of the judges thought she deserved grand champion.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby Son of Butch » Fri May 12, 2017 10:24 am

Bigfoot wrote:You'd think drawing numbers from a hat would yield better results.

According to James Surowiecki's 2004 book The Wisdom of Crowds: Why the many are smarter than the few

The average of the entries should yield the most correct answer including that of any so called expert.
This observation traces back to statistician Sir Francis Galton creator of the concept of correlation and regression
toward the mean. In 1907 Galton found that the average of 800 entries in a Guess the Weight of the Ox contest
at a county fair was the most correct, being closer than any 1 individual in the group or any of the so called experts.

Research at 4 separate Universities back up Galton's line of thought.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby Ol' 243 » Fri May 12, 2017 3:02 pm

greybeard wrote:someone will undoubtedly be along soon to explain that the ones with black hide are the only ones deserving to be ranked very high.


Well yea . . . . . . . :D :D :D
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby Boot Jack Bulls » Fri May 12, 2017 3:43 pm

Suggesting that those other competitions are somehow more legitimate because of a judging panel is, to me, laughable. Several shows I am aware of use a panel. It doesn't change the fact that is is just the average of 3 (or however many you choose) opinions. Again, you can not discount the human element. You cannot also discount the usefulness of judging phenotype. It doesn't matter what that dairy cow can put out, if her teats and bag are so poorly put together you cannot get a milker on her.

I realize most on these boards see showing cattle as a waste of time. I would hazard to guess that those are also many of the people who see the millennial generation as a waste of air. I think that that if more people were involved in Ag, even in show stock, you would see less of the problems many complain about in today's youth. Yes, parts of the show world are seedy, but that is in every hobby. Ever see a parent behaving badly at a little league event? I have. I think that showing stock instills a strong work ethic, animal husbandry skills, and forms contacts that will serve a young person all their life. Instead of bashing one of the most effective ways to get youth into Ag, maybe do something that contributes to growth. The ring is one of the few places left that teaches youth that not every one wins and how to work toward a goal. It's really not what a lot of you seem to think it is.

BTW, I've shown everything from rabbits and guinea pigs to horses and cattle as a child. I have watched my sisters evolve as a result of them doing the same. My daughter will attend her first Jr National show in 2019. I'm not speaking as an outsider looking in, but someone who has been part of the show ring world for almost 30 years and has shown everywhere from county fair to the NWSS. My family considers going showing a vacation. We have never been to Disney World or 6 Flags, and I would have it no other way.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby callmefence » Fri May 12, 2017 5:42 pm

Give everyone a bawling 300 pound calf with nuts. All expenses documented. Meet back at the local sale barn in 6 months and run em through. Simple math will pick a winner
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby True Grit Farms » Fri May 12, 2017 7:14 pm

callmefence wrote:Give everyone a bawling 300 pound calf with nuts. All expenses documented. Meet back at the local sale barn in 6 months and run em through. Simple math will pick a winner


There's no money in that.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby DLD » Fri May 12, 2017 11:28 pm

Boot Jack Bulls wrote:Suggesting that those other competitions are somehow more legitimate because of a judging panel is, to me, laughable. Several shows I am aware of use a panel. It doesn't change the fact that is is just the average of 3 (or however many you choose) opinions. Again, you can not discount the human element. You cannot also discount the usefulness of judging phenotype. It doesn't matter what that dairy cow can put out, if her teats and bag are so poorly put together you cannot get a milker on her.

I realize most on these boards see showing cattle as a waste of time. I would hazard to guess that those are also many of the people who see the millennial generation as a waste of air. I think that that if more people were involved in Ag, even in show stock, you would see less of the problems many complain about in today's youth. Yes, parts of the show world are seedy, but that is in every hobby. Ever see a parent behaving badly at a little league event? I have. I think that showing stock instills a strong work ethic, animal husbandry skills, and forms contacts that will serve a young person all their life. Instead of bashing one of the most effective ways to get youth into Ag, maybe do something that contributes to growth. The ring is one of the few places left that teaches youth that not every one wins and how to work toward a goal. It's really not what a lot of you seem to think it is.

BTW, I've shown everything from rabbits and guinea pigs to horses and cattle as a child. I have watched my sisters evolve as a result of them doing the same. My daughter will attend her first Jr National show in 2019. I'm not speaking as an outsider looking in, but someone who has been part of the show ring world for almost 30 years and has shown everywhere from county fair to the NWSS. My family considers going showing a vacation. We have never been to Disney World or 6 Flags, and I would have it no other way.


I agree 100%. Junior shows are more about raising kids than livestock, and I can introduce you to many good and successful people of all ages that credit showing livestock with helping them to get where they are today. And raising show cattle is probably even less popular on this board, but it's been good to us for a lot of years. We make good money with 4 way (and probably more) crosses, all sorts of colors and probably lots of other things most folks on this board love to hate.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby sim.-ang.king » Sun May 14, 2017 11:37 pm

They should've just went with 2-4-3-1 as their answer. That placing has the highest probability of being right, or scoring the highest.
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Re: Cattle Judging

Postby Son of Butch » Mon May 15, 2017 12:00 am

sim.-ang.king wrote:They should've just went with 2-4-3-1 as their answer.
That placing has the highest probability of being right, or scoring the highest.

Why did you pick 2-4-3-1 as highest probability?

No class was 2-4-3-1
4-2-3-1 might have been the best average choice with 1 class correct and another flipping middle pair 4-3-2-1
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