Cow turnover rate

Discuss upcoming sales and sale results.
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by JMJ Farms » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:17 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:40 pm
JMJ Farms wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:06 pm
Caustic Burno wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:54 am



Not really, the dam returned nothing to the bottom line for two years along with the retained heifer.
Using a dollar a day upkeeps and that is cheap you have 1460 bucks in that heifer. That’s not counting another 205 days until the heifers return a dollar back to the operation, using the same dollar you now have 1665 dollars in her.
If she falls over dead there is no other write off in her as she is retained and other than upkeep, she has no value unless sold.
While I agree that it’s cheaper to buy bred cows than to retain heifers, I also understand the benefit of retaining genetics and longevity from your best cows. I compensate by doing some of both.

CB, I don’t completely agree with your figures. The dam didn’t return anything for (1) year. Her next calf is in the pipeline as it would have been. So you only lose that one calf, the retained heifer calf. So, using your figures, that would be $730(+)$205(=)$935. Which is probably a little conservative. I haven’t tried to figure it exactly but I think it would probably be closer to $1100.

And I will add.... If there is a good source for replacement cows or heifers that will make good momma cows close by, then I’d be all for buying instead of retaining. If for no other reason than the fact that it’s much faster and we are all on borrowed time. Problem is they are hard to come by HERE without paying double what they’re worth.

Better check your math if you retain the Dam was maintained two years, returning nothing to the operation.
The heifer will not return anything either for two years.
If the dam bred back the day she calved the retained heifer it would be 283 days before she calves again.
My math is good. We just aren’t on the same page.

Scenario 1 - Normal terminal calves
Day 1 - Cow is bred
Day 283 - Cow calves
Day 373 - Cow breeds back
Day 488 - Calf is weaned and sold
Day 508 - Cow calves again
Day 713 - 2nd Calf is sold
Scenario 2 - Heifer is retained
Day 1 - Cow is bred
Day 283 - Cow calves
Day 373 - Cow breeds back
Day 488- Heifer is retained
Day 508 - Cow calves again
Day 713 - 2nd Calf is sold

Nothing changes with the exception of the fact that with terminal calves, you sold (2) calves in 713 days. With the retained heifer, you sold (1) calf in 713 days. You only “lose” income attributable to one calf, the retained heifer. So the very most $ you can attribute to feeding the dam would be
488 days, and this wouldn’t be completely accurate. But let’s say it is.
According to your number of $1/day.....

Dam - 488 days @ $1/day = $488
Heifer from birth till calving - 730 days @ $1/day = $730

$488 (+) $730 = $1228

My numbers would be more like this.

Dam - 365 days @ $1.25/day = $456.25
Heifer from birth to weaning - 205 days at .50/day = 102.50
Heifer from weaning to calving - 525 days @ $1/day = $525.

$456.25 (+) $102.50 (+) $525 = $1083.75.

These numbers are all hypothetical and really don’t matter, because point is that you can only attribute the maintenance cost of the dam for (1) year, to the cost of the replacement heifer.

This post is in no way intended to be rude, disrespectful, or anything of the sort. If I’m wrong in my figuring, someone please correct me.

Edited to add:
If good replacements are readily available, I still believe you are better off to take the $ the retained heifer would have brought at the sale barn on weaning day, let’s assume $750 (+) the the $525 it’s gonna take to feed her until she calves, and buy heavy bred cows. Money will come back lots quicker.


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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Caustic Burno » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:38 pm

The part your missing is you upkept the dam with no return on investment + you have kept the retained heifer for 760 days. That is from weaning to selling her calf. The dam had 365 days in upkeep when the retained heifer was born, if the cow settles in 90 days + 283 until the next cal with 205 till weaning. You actually maintained the dam over 900 days before she returns to the operation.
Don’t cheat yourself.
Nothing wrong with retaining, it just is not free as many want to think.

I will never argue the positive in genetics in seedstock. Commercial it doesn’t pencil out.
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Stocker Steve » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:56 pm

[quote="Caustic Burno"
[quote="Stocker Steve" Under what conditions do you think replacement heifer development pays ? [/quote]

Genetics in seedstock.
It doesn’t pay in commercial to retain
when factoring In cull cow price towards replacement. Dollar wise your replacement cost is cheaper than your inputs with a faster return to the operation.
[/quote]

I had been able raise a bred heifer for the market price in recent years. Heifer calves were heavily discounted, and hay was cheap till a couple months ago. But unless I lease or come up with more pasture - - I am missing out on raising half a calf per heifer. So how much profit opportunity is there in half a calf? If you are losing money on your calves, then heifer development could reduce your calf losses. :???:
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Stocker Steve » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:42 pm

[quote="Caustic Burno"
The part your missing is you upkept the dam with no return on investment + you have kept the retained heifer for 760 days. That is from weaning to selling her calf. The dam had 365 days in upkeep when the retained heifer was born, if the cow settles in 90 days + 283 until the next cal with 205 till weaning. You actually maintained the dam over 900 days before she returns to the operation.
[/quote]

So time till you see some income is a huge profitability factor when interest costs are high, or margins are low.

We have a few extreme operators here who buy bred cows in winter, don't try to re bred them, and sell all the cows along with their calves in early fall. What do you think of this?
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Caustic Burno » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:42 am

I have bought SS heavies for years in the spring and sell pairs in the fall.
My target price is 100 dollars over kill cow prices.
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Stocker Steve » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:56 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:42 am
I have bought SS heavies for years in the spring and sell pairs in the fall.
My target price is 100 dollars over kill cow prices.
Young pairs, and fall is best gazing season there?
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by True Grit Farms » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 am

The commercial cattleman that make their living with cattle retain their best heifer calves for replacements, I think I will also. I like to buy thin bred young cows, calve them out and see what kind of job they do raising a calf. The only problem is you end up with is a herd that looks like a box of crayons.
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Caustic Burno » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:01 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 am
The commercial cattleman that make their living with cattle retain their best heifer calves for replacements, I think I will also. I like to buy thin bred young cows, calve them out and see what kind of job they do raising a calf. The only problem is you end up with is a herd that looks like a box of crayons.
You loose your hybrid vigor if your not making your own f-1’s and keep dipping back in the same gene pool. Pretty soon your pool has no deep end. As hybrid goes so do the pounds to mash the scales and IQ.
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by True Grit Farms » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:14 am

Caustic Burno wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:01 am
True Grit Farms wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 am
The commercial cattleman that make their living with cattle retain their best heifer calves for replacements, I think I will also. I like to buy thin bred young cows, calve them out and see what kind of job they do raising a calf. The only problem is you end up with is a herd that looks like a box of crayons.
You loose your hybrid vigor if your not making your own f-1’s and keep dipping back in the same gene pool. Pretty soon your pool has no deep end. As hybrid goes so do the pounds to mash the scales and IQ.
How do you dip into the same gene pool when you use different bulls?
If we'd of know this we'd of picked our own cotton.

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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Caustic Burno » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:07 am

True Grit Farms wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:14 am
Caustic Burno wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:01 am
True Grit Farms wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 am
The commercial cattleman that make their living with cattle retain their best heifer calves for replacements, I think I will also. I like to buy thin bred young cows, calve them out and see what kind of job they do raising a calf. The only problem is you end up with is a herd that looks like a box of crayons.
You loose your hybrid vigor if your not making your own f-1’s and keep dipping back in the same gene pool. Pretty soon your pool has no deep end. As hybrid goes so do the pounds to mash the scales and IQ.
How do you dip into the same gene pool when you use different bulls?
The vast majority are not changing bulls out every couple of years. I knew you would throw that out when I posted. A large number run the same POS bull until he is completely wore out.
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by mncowboy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:03 am

If you not retaining any of your heifers, there's no use in buying anything other than the most average bull out there being the genetics are heading out the driveway every year.
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Dave » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:25 pm

mncowboy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:03 am
If you not retaining any of your heifers, there's no use in buying anything other than the most average bull out there being the genetics are heading out the driveway every year.
I would disagree with this. I still sell steers and heifers that leave by the pound. That is the main source of income here and a well bred steer is going to weigh more than one sired by the most average bull out there. There are some big ranches here who have been using good genetic for years. The second cut of their heifers are packing the same genetics as the ones they kept.

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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Nesikep » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:04 pm

Your tax codes must be different than ours

It makes no difference to your taxes whether you buy or raise them... Livestock is 100% depreciable the year it's bought. So you sell a heifer to buy one (for the sake of argument lets say they're both $1000), your income goes up $1000 and it's completely offset by the $1000 purchase price of the next one.. totally moot point.. There's no additional writeoff if either of them keel over at any point.. One never was an expense other than her feed, the other you've already called her an expense when you bought her... while she's alive she's an asset, but so is the one you raised.

If you sell a heifer calf and buy a bred heifer you're saving a year of feed, but now you're probably paying considerably more for her and she better perform to pay that off.

I'll keep exceptional cows until they fall over, the rest I keep until it looks like I have something better to replace them with, age doesn't really factor into it, it's just priorities... If they're trouble free even if they just have average calves they can hang around a decade or so.. I have a 14 year old I've been looking for excuses to get rid of.. always had others to go on the truck though
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Caustic Burno » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:19 pm

Nesikep wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:04 pm
Your tax codes must be different than ours

It makes no difference to your taxes whether you buy or raise them... Livestock is 100% depreciable the year it's bought. So you sell a heifer to buy one (for the sake of argument lets say they're both $1000), your income goes up $1000 and it's completely offset by the $1000 purchase price of the next one.. totally moot point.. There's no additional writeoff if either of them keel over at any point.. One never was an expense other than her feed, the other you've already called her an expense when you bought her... while she's alive she's an asset, but so is the one you raised.

If you sell a heifer calf and buy a bred heifer you're saving a year of feed, but now you're probably paying considerably more for her and she better perform to pay that off.

I'll keep exceptional cows until they fall over, the rest I keep until it looks like I have something better to replace them with, age doesn't really factor into it, it's just priorities... If they're trouble free even if they just have average calves they can hang around a decade or so.. I have a 14 year old I've been looking for excuses to get rid of.. always had others to go on the truck though
A retained heifer here has no value to the IRS unless sold. If she falls over dead there is no write off for value only the inputs to maintain her.
There is no benefit to the terminal commercial operation to retain.
The purchased heifer has depreciation value along with inputs. The retained has no depreciation value.
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Re: Cow turnover rate

Post by Nesikep » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:58 pm

Over how long do you typically write them off? It still sounds like you're chasing your tail, If you're selling one of your heifers she's income, using that income to buy one that will be expensed still is a zero sum game
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